Michael Brown shooting II

[carlitos]

Just because it didn't happen in this thread doesn't mean Cl1mh4224rd was wrong:

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You seem to be quite selective in your replies today. No comment on incitement to riot from Mr. Brown's family?

 

[NoahFence]

As ever, I am a moron, and the forum software (and my memory) sucks. I apologize.

No problemo

 

[Cylinder]

If you add in the fact that Wilson's and Witness 10's version of events actually matches the forensic evidence quite well, it's effectively dispositive. Virtually the only way it couldn't be true is if there was a conspiracy to protect Wilson, and Witness 10 was in on it, either wittingly or unwittingly.

Also, there's a very strong commensurate detail argument in that those witnesses with the ability to see Brown with his hands up should also have seen him moving west back toward Wilson's patrol car.

 

[William Parcher]

They don't want a trial, they want a conviction for murder. Although if they had the chance they'd kill him on the spot, no doubt in my mind about that.

This certainly isn't about justice, the due process of law has run its course. But the lynch mob is unhappy with the result of the justice system, thus the continued protesting, looting, and burning.

Link.

When asked whether violence will continue tonight, a masked man says, "As long as Darren Wilson has breath in his lungs, there will be trouble."

 

[Upchurch]

The only solution I can think of is to use overwhelming numbers of police (probably 2-3x the current numbers per capita in crime-ridden urban areas). Strength in numbers will result in a more cowed criminal element, and a more relaxed, friendly, and responsive police force. You'll get positive feedback in the opposite direction (virtuous circle vs vicious cycle).

That is such an absurd response, I would almost think it a Poe.

The only solution you can think of to build better trust between the community and the government/justice system is a show of overwhelming force by the government/justice system to strike enough fear into the heart of the community that they don't act out, thus allowing the police to relax and be nicer to the community? That's how you would build mutual trust?

You've not had much experience people or history, have you?

 

[LTC8K6]

Wilson, "the target or suspect, has the most interest in the case," McCulloch noted. "And so we don't put a whole lot of stock — we love to hear from him — but don't put a whole lot of stock, or cannot rely solely upon, that testimony."

http://theweek.com/article/index/27...hole-lot-of-stock-in-darren-wilsons-testimony

 

[Upchurch]

You seem to be quite selective in your replies today. No comment on incitement to riot from Mr. Brown's family?

It's wrong, unfortunate, and symptomatic of the frustration he undoubtedly feels with a justice system that is pervasive with systemic racism. He's part of the problem.

 

[sunmaster14]

That is such an absurd response, I would almost think it a Poe.

The only solution you can think of to build better trust between the community and the government/justice system is a show of overwhelming force by the government/justice system to strike enough fear into the heart of the community that they don't act out, thus allowing the police to relax and be nicer to the community? That's how you would build mutual trust?

You've not had much experience people or history, have you?

Note, I did not advocate overwhelming force. I advocated overwhelming numbers. There is a very big difference. One cop surrounded by two or more potentially hostile people will feel unsafe and may respond more aggressively to a provocation. A group of cops can easily banter with a group of potentially hostile people. There is safety in numbers, which allows for a more tolerant and friendly interaction.

For example, if Wilson had a partner in the car with him at the time, it's likely that Brown and his friend would have moved off the street and continued on their way.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

That is such an absurd response, I would almost think it a Poe.

The only solution you can think of to build better trust between the community and the government/justice system is a show of overwhelming force by the government/justice system to strike enough fear into the heart of the community that they don't act out, thus allowing the police to relax and be nicer to the community? That's how you would build mutual trust?

You've not had much experience people or history, have you?

Hey, just because that type of response has never, ever worked doesn't mean it won't this time.

 

[carlitos]

It's wrong, unfortunate, and symptomatic of the frustration he undoubtedly feels with a justice system that is pervasive with systemic racism. He's part of the problem.

Thanks for that. I agree on all counts.

 

[Upchurch]

There is safety in numbers, which allows for a more tolerant and friendly interaction.

Safety for who?

 

[sunmaster14]

Hey, just because that type of response has never, ever worked doesn't mean it won't this time.

Not sure if you're referring to Upchurch's strawman or what I actually suggested, but my suggestion is known to work quite well. It's just not tried very often, because it's very expensive.

 

[Iamafalser]

That's not even close to the root cause of what happened.

The root cause is a combination of a community that doesn't trust their own government/justice system and a government/justice system that doesn't respect their own community (or portions thereof). It's a negative feedback loop where every bad behavior confirms the bias of the other group, allowing for a lot of legitimate and short-sighted finger pointing, and its been building for generations. I'm not talking about just Ferguson.

Very few want to address or even acknowledge this because it is very hard to gloat when you can't isolate all the blame in one place or person.

And in your eyes this justifies an 18 year old man engaging in criminal behavior? Obviously the store owner deserved to be stolen from and assaulted when he tried to stop it, right?

 

[Upchurch]

And in your eyes this justifies an 18 year old man engaging in criminal behavior? Obviously the store owner deserved to be stolen from and assaulted when he tried to stop it, right?

Not even a little bit.

 

[sunmaster14]

Safety for who?

The police, who are the ones whose job it is to promote peace and tranquility. Of course, it is also safer for civilians as well. Cops are less likely to misbehave if there are other cops watching, and there is less reason for them to misbehave. The reduction in the rate of crime will make everybody safer as well.

 

[Upchurch]

The police, who are the ones whose job it is to promote peace and tranquility. Of course, it is also safer for civilians as well. Cops are less likely to misbehave if there are other cops watching, and there is less reason for them to misbehave. The reduction in the rate of crime will make everybody safer as well.

As I asked before, you've not had much experience with people or history, have you?

The problem is that community and the police don't trust each other. The "criminal element" you want these overwhelming numbers of police to cow into obedience are, from the police perspective, the community itself. All you're solution does is tip the scales in one direction, which makes the other side all the more desperate.

And do you honestly think having other cops around keeps them from misbehaving? There are numerous examples in one or both of these Ferguson threads of cops arresting people for perfectly legal actions in the presence of other cops.

 

[bobdroege7]

Systemic racism is not a valid reason to refuse to comply with a police officer's instructions.

I'm not buying the systemic racism anyway, plenty of opportunities exist in this country, just because it isn't easy to suceed, is no reason to turn to crime and violence.

The police continue to train and work to improve their procedures and policies, but where is the response from the community?

Chanting 'hands up don't shoot" while burning cop cars makes me think racist thoughts, so please make it stop.

It seems that Brown's family and those that represent them refuse to examine the physical evidence that exonerates Wilson. Who planted those blood drops anyway?

There is a large gap between the two sides and only one side seems to be willing to try and bridge the gap. I'm looking for better role models than R. King, Brown and Martin.

Like an actual compliant suspect being shot.

 

[BStrong]

You have a whole lof of people who bought into the "shot down in cold blood" scenario and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make any impression on them, just as mountains of scientific evidence will make no impression on the anti-vax crowd.
3 different autopsies all came to the same conclusion.... But these people still believe that Brown was on his knees, begging for mercy, and shot in the back.
3 different medical authorities, one hired by the family, all say this is nonsense. But it's still believed.

I continue to hear utter nonsense. "Brown should not have been executed for stealing cigarettes!"

Brown was shot for viciously assaulting a police officer who was simply trying to do his job, not for stealing.
Almost all the commentary I hear conveniently forgets that moments before, Brown had committed a felonious strongarm robbery and still had the fruits of that robbery on his person.

I'm still convinced of the scenario I proposed when this all started.

Brown, high as a kite, commits a strongarm robbery. He's walking from the scene and suddenly here's the cops. Suddenly reality rears it's ugly head..... No college, prison. He's going away.... He's legally an adult, after all. He panicks. Attacks the officer. Goes into the "I can't go to jail" mode any police officer has seen dozens of times. Totally irrational. On autopilot.

Tragedy results.

Bingo.

 

[sunmaster14]

As I asked before, you've not had much experience with people or history, have you?

I have to say, I often see you resort to this kind of smug and obnoxious rhetoric. I'm surprised you haven't given me the "hug" emoticon treatment yet. Some of us aspire to be civil for civility's sake, not just to avoid violating the MA.

The problem is that community and the police don't trust each other. The "criminal element" you want these overwhelming numbers of police to cow into obedience are, from the police perspective, the community itself. All you're solution does is tip the scales in one direction, which makes the other side all the more desperate.

I'm assuming that the vast majority of people in the community are law-abiding and dislike crime as much as the police do. I think the police make this assumption too. Probably because it's true. The police no doubt fall victim to stereotyping of the so-called criminal element, just like everybody else, but with numbers on their side, they can afford to suppress their biases as they no longer believe their physical safety depends on it.

And do you honestly think having other cops around keeps them from misbehaving? There are numerous examples in one or both of these Ferguson threads of cops arresting people for perfectly legal actions in the presence of other cops.

Well, once again, you're misstating my claim. I wrote that more cops = less likely to misbehave. I think that's true, and the fact that there are numerous examples of groups of cops misbehaving in a country of 320MM people doesn't do anything to disprove that claim. I don't really have the time to search for evidence right now. I could make a probabilistic argument based on the likelihood of a whistleblower increasing with the size of the group, but I know those types of arguments don't have much persuasive power around here.

 

[Giz]

That is such an absurd response, I would almost think it a Poe.

The only solution you can think of to build better trust between the community and the government/justice system is a show of overwhelming force by the government/justice system to strike enough fear into the heart of the community that they don't act out, thus allowing the police to relax and be nicer to the community? That's how you would build mutual trust?

You've not had much experience people or history, have you?

Wow. Are you insinuating that the whole community is criminal?