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Systemic racism is not a valid reason to refuse to comply with a police officer's instructions.
I'm certainly not saying that it is.

I'm not buying the systemic racism anyway, plenty of opportunities exist in this country, just because it isn't easy to suceed, is no reason to turn to crime and violence.
You misunderstand what systemic racism in the justice system means. It doesn't mean that because it isn't easy to succeed that minorities turn to crime and violence.

It means that minorities are disproportionately scrutinized and punished than whites.

Some reading: Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System
 
The police no doubt fall victim to stereotyping of the so-called criminal element, just like everybody else, but with numbers on their side, they can afford to suppress their biases as they no longer believe their physical safety depends on it.
What makes you think that they would just because they have numbers on their side? Systemic racism has plagued the justice system for generations. Why would that change simply because there are more police?

Well, once again, you're misstating my claim. I wrote that more cops = less likely to misbehave.
Based on what? You're making raw assertions that seem to have no basis.
 
As I asked before, you've not had much experience with people or history, have you?

The problem is that community and the police don't trust each other. The "criminal element" you want these overwhelming numbers of police to cow into obedience are, from the police perspective, the community itself. All you're solution does is tip the scales in one direction, which makes the other side all the more desperate.

And do you honestly think having other cops around keeps them from misbehaving? There are numerous examples in one or both of these Ferguson threads of cops arresting people for perfectly legal actions in the presence of other cops.

I think there may be value in saturating an area with police for a few hours to forestall a violent outbreak during a particularly tense period (say, the hours leading up to and following a highly controversial grand jury decision announcement).

Once tensions ease a bit from that high point, the police and the community can and should find other ways to build mutual trust and respect in a safer, more peaceful context.
 
I'm certainly not saying that it is.


You misunderstand what systemic racism in the justice system means. It doesn't mean that because it isn't easy to succeed that minorities turn to crime and violence.

It means that minorities are disproportionately scrutinized and punished than whites.

Some reading: Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System

From your reading, it shows that the problem is economic, not racist.

"Poor whites and people of other ethnicity are also subjected to this system of social control. Because if poor whites or others get out of line, they will be given the worst possible treatment, they will be treated just like poor blacks."

Next time you are out and about in your vehicle, try to determine the race of other drivers.

It is an excellent example of an exercise that tests both your observation skills and claims that profiling is rampant.

Some are still saying that Brown was profiled.

Profiled for being a criminal, sure I buy that, but not because of his race.
 
I think there may be value in saturating an area with police for a few hours to forestall a violent outbreak during a particularly tense period (say, the hours leading up to and following a highly controversial grand jury decision announcement).

Once tensions ease a bit from that high point, the police and the community can and should find other ways to build mutual trust and respect in a safer, more peaceful context.
I can absolutely agree with that. The question is how to build that trust and respect after it has been all but not-existent for generations.

I think I've posted this link before (or one like it). Law abiding black people live in fear of the police. They have to teach their sons that there is no leeway given to them and that they can not give the police any excuse to bust them, or worse.
 
I wrote that more cops = less likely to misbehave.

This same issue came up after the Rodney King riots, I remember a number of articles comparing the Los Angeles and New York police departments. One thing the articles stressed was that the NYPD had many more Law Enforcement per capita than LA - I remember one article making it out that NY had as much as eight times more LE Officers per capita than LA did.

The idea was that the NYPD could be much less forceful than the LAPD and LA County Sheriff, due to overwhelming numbers. Nobody even thought about trying to fight a cop in NY, because there was never just one cop to fight. They had different overtime rules, too, so NY could bring in large numbers of extra police when needed - I remember one article referring to potential rioters (after a sports event) seeing "a sea of blue" and getting discouraged.

The articles (as I remember them, it was a long time ago) tried to make the point that although the NYPD were not a bunch of kind and gentle flower-children, they did resort to force much less often than the under-staffed LA police, who were forced to compensate for low numbers by using extra force and more militaristic tactics.

So it could come down to a larger, more civilian type of police force, compared to a smaller, but more militaristic police force.
 
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From your reading, it shows that the problem is economic, not racist.

You are cherry-picking one paragraph. Here are some other bits.

While African Americans comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of monthly drug users they are 37% of the people arrested for drug offenses - according to 2009 Congressional testimony by Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project.
The police stop blacks and Latinos at rates that are much higher than whites. In New York City, where people of color make up about half of the population, 80% of the NYPD stops were of blacks and Latinos. When whites were stopped, only 8% were frisked. When blacks and Latinos are stopped 85% were frisked according to information provided by the NYPD.
African Americans are arrested for drug offenses at rates 2 to 11 times higher than the rate for whites - according to a May 2009 report on disparity in drug arrests by Human Rights Watch.
Once arrested, blacks are more likely to remain in prison awaiting trial than whites. For example, the New York state division of criminal justice did a 1995 review of disparities in processing felony arrests and found that in some parts of New York blacks are 33% more likely to be detained awaiting felony trials than whites facing felony trials.
The U.S. Sentencing Commission reported in March 2010 that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10% longer than white offenders for the same crimes. Marc Mauer of the Sentencing Project reports African Americans are 21% more likely to receive mandatory minimum sentences than white defendants and 20% more like to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
A July 2009 report by the Sentencing Project found that two-thirds of the people in the US with life sentences are non-white. In New York, it is 83%.
African Americans, who are 13% of the population and 14% of drug users, are not only 37% of the people arrested for drugs but 56% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses.
And on and on and on.
 
I can absolutely agree with that. The question is how to build that trust and respect after it has been all but not-existent for generations.

I think I've posted this link before (or one like it). Law abiding black people live in fear of the police. They have to teach their sons that there is no leeway given to them and that they can not give the police any excuse to bust them, or worse.

I'm from a very white background so maybe I'm just incredibly naive but I find this irritating - the statistics given about imprisonments etc etc don't say whether or not they are wrongful.

"Such is the burden of black parenting. Being a black parent, especially of a black boy, comes with the added onus of having to protect your child from a country that is out to get him—a country that kills someone that looks like him every 28 hours, a country that will likely imprison him by his mid-thirties if he doesn't get his high school diploma, a country that is more than twice as likely to suspend him from school than a white classmate."

but if those statistics are of those THAT BROKE THE LAW then the argument just falls apart and shifts to 'why are these statistics the case and if it is because of historical injustice to some degree how can we address that?'

I just find it a little old to hear 'I get hassled because I'm {minority} you don't know what it's like man, we have to explain to our children not to break the law coz if they do they cops will bust them'....really?
 
You are cherry-picking one paragraph. Here are some other bits.








And on and on and on.

but they or at least the vast majority of them were still guilty of a crime right (except for the stops/searches and I'll concede it is probably even worse in the US than in the UK for profiling for that)

so they just need to catch more white criminals?

surely rather than black parents needing to tell their children to distrust the police, white parents should not tell their kids they can get away with stuff...
 
but if those statistics are of those THAT BROKE THE LAW then the argument just falls apart and shifts to 'why are these statistics the case and if it is because of historical injustice to some degree how can we address that?'
Just because someone is being stopped by the police, arrested, or even imprisoned does not necessarily mean they broke the law. Take a look at the link I posted upthread.

I just find it a little old to hear 'I get hassled because I'm {minority} you don't know what it's like man, we have to explain to our children not to break the law coz if they do they cops will bust them'....really?
It's more than telling their kids they can't break the law. It's teaching their kids that they are automatically under suspicion no matter how innocent they are. They don't get the benefit of the doubt that white kids do.

And if you think it's old, that's because it is. Decades old. Centuries old. Just because you don't see or experience it in your everyday life doesn't mean it's gone.
 
You are cherry-picking one paragraph. Here are some other bits.

Hmmm..Why no motion of asian people anywhere in the article? They're minorities too, right?


Law abiding black people live in fear of the police. They have to teach their sons that there is no leeway given to them and that they can not give the police any excuse to bust them, or worse.

Really?!? It this true of all black people, or just some of them.
 
You are cherry-picking one paragraph. Here are some other bits.








And on and on and on.
Maybe they get more arrests because the neighborhoods they live in are far more violent and thus attract far more police attention? I'd certainly expect police to make more arrests in the places they are policing, wouldn't you?

Here's a Chicago homicide map: http://heyjackass.com/deadliest-hoods/

Do you think police should concentrate their resources in the blue areas, or the red ones with all those target signs in them?
 
You have a whole lof of people who bought into the "shot down in cold blood" scenario and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make any impression on them, just as mountains of scientific evidence will make no impression on the anti-vax crowd.
3 different autopsies all came to the same conclusion.... But these people still believe that Brown was on his knees, begging for mercy, and shot in the back.
3 different medical authorities, one hired by the family, all say this is nonsense. But it's still believed.

I continue to hear utter nonsense. "Brown should not have been executed for stealing cigarettes!"

Brown was shot for viciously assaulting a police officer who was simply trying to do his job, not for stealing.
Almost all the commentary I hear conveniently forgets that moments before, Brown had committed a felonious strongarm robbery and still had the fruits of that robbery on his person.

I'm still convinced of the scenario I proposed when this all started.

Brown, high as a kite, commits a strongarm robbery. He's walking from the scene and suddenly here's the cops. Suddenly reality rears it's ugly head..... No college, prison. He's going away.... He's legally an adult, after all. He panicks. Attacks the officer. Goes into the "I can't go to jail" mode any police officer has seen dozens of times. Totally irrational. On autopilot.
Tragedy results.

Yeah, it's conformation bias on a massive scale. From the first hour of the Btrown Shooting you had people in this thread who had already decided on a scenario, and they refuse to budge from that.
Of course some of them might well know that Brown was not an "Gentle Giant"
but that does not matter. It gives them an excuse to agitate and promote their poltical agenda, and anything that will help "the revolution" is justified.
 
Just because someone is being stopped by the police, arrested, or even imprisoned does not necessarily mean they broke the law. Take a look at the link I posted upthread.

lazy I know but could you point to the specific ones that deal with innocents? and yes if there is a % of wrongful convictions then racial bias will mean those biased against will have some fear of wrongful conviction but that never seems to be the thrust of the argument...it always seems to be about treating black criminals worse than white criminals, which while wrong is less upsetting.

It's more than telling their kids they can't break the law. It's teaching their kids that they are automatically under suspicion no matter how innocent they are. They don't get the benefit of the doubt that white kids do.

But what does this actually mean? What might happen to their kids if they don't tell them the thing that white parents don't need to tell their children?


And if you think it's old, that's because it is. Decades old. Centuries old. Just because you don't see or experience it in your everyday life doesn't mean it's gone.

Oh I know it was far worse in times gone past - would you accept it has improved a lot and is still generally improving (but you want it to improve faster which is admirable)?
 
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Maybe they get more arrests because the neighborhoods they live in are far more violent and thus attract far more police attention? I'd certainly expect police to make more arrests in the places they are policing, wouldn't you?

This is only one of several problems with the "racist system" conclusions drawn those sorts of statistics.

In the past 15 years I've lived in some of the worst ghettos in the US and some of the nicer neighborhoods as well. Guess where I got pulled over more often!
 
I still don't get all of the hand-wringing over the "Gentle Giant" thing. This was always billed as what his family and friends thought of him as, not as an actual description (since it doesn't really mean anything in the first place).
 
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