Status
Not open for further replies.
But Brown's charge is independently confirmed by someone on the street who is overheard in the youtube video mentioned half a dozen times (importantly, before the narrative took hold in the public consciousness). But none of this gives you pause. Wilson's guilty.

Wait a second, no, there's nothing in that video that says Brown was charging. First of all, you don't even know who that guy was or if he was there or just repeating something he heard. Yet you've taken it as a fact. That's poor skeptical thinking, isn't it? Second, even parsing that video, the guy says "he just kept coming". Do we even know who "he" is in this context? Without knowing more, it's possible "he" refers to Wilson, not Brown. Since we have no idea who this guy is or what he saw, it's all conjecture on your part. Calling this level of uncertainty "independently confirmed" is quite the stretch.
 
Browns body is a good 100 to 125 ft. away from Wilson's SUV. When would Brown have time to taunt Wilson? The 3 second gap in firing would explain Wilson coming up to Brown. There are three evidence cones by Brown's body which are suspected to be the shell casings of Wilson's gun. If that assessment is correct then Wilson is in very close proximity to Brown when he shoots.

If you want to go with the Bull-rush hypothesis -Brown would have had to have been even further away than 125 ft. in order to come back and get shot by Wilson.

I'm wondering about Wilson's hearing ability after firing a gun inside the vehicle he was in.
 
Here's the scene from top view.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-enhanced-audio-transcription-of-eye-witness/

(sorry about the link)

Browns body is a good 100 to 125 ft. away from Wilson's SUV. When would Brown have time to taunt Wilson? The 3 second gap in firing would explain Wilson coming up to Brown. There are three evidence cones by Brown's body which are suspected to be the shell casings of Wilson's gun. If that assessment is correct then Wilson is in very close proximity to Brown when he shoots.

That site claims that is a bracelet of dorian johnson, not shell casings. Just saying.

But even if they are casings, that's three shots by the car. Wilson chases, brown stops, taunts, advances, then the 10 rounds are fired as described up-thread.

I'm honestly not understanding how the picture makes that scenario invalid.

Here is what dorian johnson has to say:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
FF: As you are leaving, he is still shooting?
DJ: No. At this time, like I said, I felt like the officer is in shock because we were running for two minutes or not that much, but for a time where I can get into cover and he can still be running, my friend Big Mike. So, I knew the officer immediately got out of his car.


If you want to go with the Bull-rush hypothesis -Brown would have had to have been even further away than 125 ft. in order to come back and get shot by Wilson.

Yes, he would have had to have gone further then come back to the 125 feet. Again, I'm honestly not understanding how the picture, or recording, makes that not possible.
 
Last edited:
Wait a second, no, there's nothing in that video that says Brown was charging.

Here's the relevant transcript:

#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –
#1. Oh, the police got his gun
#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

Unaboogie:
First of all, you don't even know who that guy was or if he was there or just repeating something he heard. Yet you've taken it as a fact.

"The next thing I know..."

That's poor skeptical thinking, isn't it? Second, even parsing that video, the guy says "he just kept coming". Do we even know who "he" is in this context? Without knowing more, it's possible "he" refers to Wilson, not Brown.

Well, if you pay attention to the context, the person overheard says "he doubled back toward him." I think it's safe to say the police officer did not double-back because, as you said earlier, we all agree Brown turned around at some point.

Since we have no idea who this guy is or what he saw, it's all conjecture on your part. Calling this level of uncertainty "independently confirmed" is quite the stretch.

It independently confirms the account given by Josie. Is it definitive? No. But it should give the homicide crowd serious reconsideration. The way you've attempted to parse the statements seems "quite the stretch."
 
That site claims that is a bracelet of dorian johnson, not shell casings. Just saying.

But even if they are casings, that's three shots by the car. Wilson chases, brown stops, taunts, advances, then the 10 rounds are fired as described up-thread.

I'm honestly not understanding how the picture makes that scenario invalid.

Here is what dorian johnson has to say:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/236754541/Dorian-Johnson-Q-A
FF: As you are leaving, he is still shooting?
DJ: No. At this time, like I said, I felt like the officer is in shock because we were running for two minutes or not that much, but for a time where I can get into cover and he can still be running, my friend Big Mike. So, I knew the officer immediately got out of his car.




Yes, he would have had to have gone further then come back to the 125 feet. Again, I'm honestly not understanding how the picture, or recording, makes that not possible.


I wasn't clear enough. There are three marker cones by the curb in close proximity to Brown's body. They are believed to be the shell casings from Wilson's last volley.
 
No, OnlyTellsTruths is incorrect. I did not ignore the claim that wilson shot at brown as he fled, I even linked to the only source of the police confirming it upthread.

And the number of shots is not a minor point.
You're still ignoring the point. It's unbelievable.

You claimed there was evidence that no shots hit Brown from behind.

What is the evidence no shots hit Brown from behind?
 
It seems we have these options:

1) Surrendering
2) Tripping
3) Charging


4)Doubling over in pain. I think this is most likely. The first couple of shots of the second volley hit him and he immediately doubles over in pain. His head passes into the line of fire and the next two shots hit him in the head.

Steve S
 
I find it telling that the so called audio forensic expert makes no mention of how the recording was created. When you are selling a conspiracy theory, the standard tactic is to only provide the information that fits your theory.

So-called? Seriously?

"I am a member of AES, ACFEI and IAI. I am a Registered Investigator (RI) and Certified Forensic Consultant (CFC), as well as a member of the American Board of Recorded Evidence with the American College of Forensic Examiners International.

I help courts and law enforcement agencies understand the science and technology of audio and video forensics. Voice identification is one of my most sought after services at Primeau Forensics followed by audio and video authentication, clarification/enhancement."


http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/meet-the-experts/meet-ed-primeau/

And as far as I can tell, I'm the only one who has bothered to support my position that the recording MAY be a fake (which is all I've claimed).

I get it though. He doesn't agree with you so he's a "so-called" expert. The New York Times is the word of God when it comes to Wilson shooting Brown as he's running away, but not when the New York Times reports that all the shots hit Brown in the front of his body. Eyewitnesses who are quoted as saying Brown was "shot in the back" really mean he was shot from behind. Wilson has a clean record, but only because the Ferguson PD are covering everything up.

Some of you clearly are just believing what you want to believe and aren't looking at this skeptically at all. Whatever. I'll pop back in when we see how bad Wilson got hurt, the results of the police investigation, and what comes out when Brown's juvenile record is revealed.

It won't matter though. Any evidence that doesn't fit the narrative that Wilson murdered Brown will be hand-waved away.
 
You're still ignoring the point. It's unbelievable.

You claimed there was evidence that no shots hit Brown from behind.

What is the evidence no shots hit Brown from behind?

Where is your evidence that any shots hit him from behind?

There is a possibility that one of the shots could have come from either side but it makes much more sense positionally if it came from the front.

You should dial back your claim that "one of the bullets hit him from behind" to "there exists a possibility that one of the bullets hit him from behind". *


* I would characterize it as a very slight possibility... but I am being generous here.
 
So-called? Seriously?

"I am a member of AES, ACFEI and IAI. I am a Registered Investigator (RI) and Certified Forensic Consultant (CFC), as well as a member of the American Board of Recorded Evidence with the American College of Forensic Examiners International.

I help courts and law enforcement agencies understand the science and technology of audio and video forensics. Voice identification is one of my most sought after services at Primeau Forensics followed by audio and video authentication, clarification/enhancement."


http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/meet-the-experts/meet-ed-primeau/

And as far as I can tell, I'm the only one who has bothered to support my position that the recording MAY be a fake (which is all I've claimed).

I get it though. He doesn't agree with you so he's a "so-called" expert. The New York Times is the word of God when it comes to Wilson shooting Brown as he's running away, but not when the New York Times reports that all the shots hit Brown in the front of his body. Eyewitnesses who are quoted as saying Brown was "shot in the back" really mean he was shot from behind. Wilson has a clean record, but only because the Ferguson PD are covering everything up.

Some of you clearly are just believing what you want to believe and aren't looking at this skeptically at all. Whatever. I'll pop back in when we see how bad Wilson got hurt, the results of the police investigation, and what comes out when Brown's juvenile record is revealed.

It won't matter though. Any evidence that doesn't fit the narrative that Wilson murdered Brown will be hand-waved away.

This is complete projection. The audio has been authenticated by the company that recorded it, and the manner in which it was recorded makes it impossible -- utterly impossible -- for the gunshots to have been edited in any way. Therefore, your audio expert is wrong about this, no matter what his credentials are.

So who is waving what away?
 
So-called? Seriously?

Despite his qualifications, he doesn't seem to understand how the recording was made. He started his career in 1979. Perhaps he's too old to be up on the latest web tech.

Steve S
 
Last edited:
Here's the relevant transcript:



Unaboogie:


"The next thing I know..."



Well, if you pay attention to the context, the person overheard says "he doubled back toward him." I think it's safe to say the police officer did not double-back because, as you said earlier, we all agree Brown turned around at some point.



It independently confirms the account given by Josie. Is it definitive? No. But it should give the homicide crowd serious reconsideration. The way you've attempted to parse the statements seems "quite the stretch."

Well you made it sound more definitive before than you are now. I think it COULD be an eyewitness, but there is zero proof that this person was. He could be, or he could have heard this from someone else and used poor language. Until this person is identified, it's just conjecture on the part of the people who are the flipside of what you're accusing me of being. It's an ambiguous statement from an anonymous person under unclear circumstances. Calling it anything but a possible witness is totally uncalled for, and using this tape to rebut anything is useless.

If this person identifies himself and gives a fuller context of what he meant, then we can talk about it.

P.S. I don't know anyone here who thinks this was premeditated murder. If it happened like the witnesses say it did, it's a case of a cop losing control of himself and lashing out. In this respect, I think that if Brown did punch him, this would make the end result more understandable, but not less incriminating for Wilson. In other words, when you ask "why would Wilson, a cop with no record, suddenly shoot down a unarmed kid?" the answer is because that kid gave him a rap on the face and he lost his **** over it.
 
Interesting diary up at the Great Orange Satan (otherwise known as Daily Kos) about an attempt by one person to get a look at the incident report.

According to him, the FPD should have create a few different reports that night, but for some reason apparently did not. Not only that, but they've been unresponsive towards all FOIA requests.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...-Use-of-Force-Report-More-Ferguson-Violations

Kerr's email stated there were no records responsive to my request for Use of Force statements. Curious. Again - it appeared - that this case was one in which the Department had consciously chosen to cover-up the actions of Officer Wilson rather than comply with their required duties.

When I received another record, however, the Ferguson Use of Force Policy, I decided to follow up and resubmit that request - with a small amendment. This time I would request all such reports, including specifically the F-080 Use of Force Report.

The Ferguson Police policy that I obtained stated, explicitly, that whenever an Officer uses lethal force, as in this case, and when that use of lethal force causes wounds to the victim, then there are additional requirements.

In particular, as explicitly stated in this policy, the Watch Commander on duty the night of the incident was required to file this F-080 Report and that it must then go through the chain of command until ultimately reaching the Chief of Police.

So clearly this report was required and thus perhaps they misunderstood my original request. Even though it did not specify only reports filed by Officer Wilson perhaps they just made an error and assumed that was all I originally sought.

So I submitted the newly revised request including the F-080 Report language. I immediately got a response. Again from Stephanie Kerr.

They also have no F-080 Report.
 
Interesting diary up at the Great Orange Satan (otherwise known as Daily Kos) about an attempt by one person to get a look at the incident report.

According to him, the FPD should have create a few different reports that night, but for some reason apparently did not. Not only that, but they've been unresponsive towards all FOIA requests.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...-Use-of-Force-Report-More-Ferguson-Violations

But the FPD is not handling the case, the SLCPD is. Perhaps whoever is submitting requests ought to try the other agency.

And I don't bel;eive FOI requsts are valid with an ongoing investigation any how.
 
Seriously? I thought this was pretty commonly accepted, even among pro-drug people. Anyway, a recent study indicates that it does indeed induce paranoia, and it's not "incredibly rare", either:

So, there's a bit more to it than "60s anti-drug fantasies". AFAIK, no studies have linked aggression to cannabis, though. It seems to be the polar opposite to alcohol, at least in that regard.
[sidetrack]You've cited such a bad study I have to address it briefly even though it is a sidetrack in this thread.

Here is one claim in that news report (not the study itself, BTW):
For instance, our study of the population of England found that the belief that people are deliberately trying to harm you is three times as common among cannabis users as it is among non-users.

They admit there was no cause and effect established. But the finding itself was rather incredible so I looked up the source.

Here's the study they cite in their introduction: Concomitants of paranoia in the general population.
RESULTS:
The prevalence of paranoid thinking in the previous year ranged from 18.6% reporting that people were against them, to 1.8% reporting potential plots to cause them serious harm. At all levels, paranoia was associated with youth, lower intellectual functioning, being single, poverty, poor physical health, poor social functioning, less perceived social support, stress at work, less social cohesion, less calmness, less happiness, suicidal ideation, a great range of other psychiatric symptoms (including anxiety, worry, phobias, post-traumatic stress and insomnia), cannabis use, problem drinking and increased use of treatment and services.
If 18% of the population believe someone is against them, how do you know that is paranoia as opposed to a fact someone is actually against those 18%? I would suggest it's even higher than that. A lot of people actually are against other people.

And nowhere in that abstract does it say the study found this claimed finding:
For instance, our study of the population of England found that the belief that people are deliberately trying to harm you is three times as common among cannabis users as it is among non-users. The belief that people are trying to cause you serious injury or harm is five times as common among cannabis users.

So are they lying? Did they run their own study on the data? Why is such an important finding not in the abstract of the study they are citing as uncovering that finding?

As for the "largest study to date":
We recruited 121 volunteers, all of whom had taken cannabis at least once before, and all of whom reported having experienced paranoid thoughts in the previous month (which is typical of half the population).
121 subjects is barely more than a pilot study.

And they started with people who already reported paranoia. They claim that's a random sample because half the population reports such paranoia? Since when is 18% half the population? And it wasn't even established that was paranoia as opposed to a simple fact?

More importantly, they did not establish that their 121 subjects were the same as the claimed 50% of the population. It's a long way from an increase in paranoia in a random population sample. Instead they specifically selected the test subjects.

They injected THC. Gawd knows what different effect that resulted in.

Half of those given THC experienced paranoia, compared with 30% of the placebo group: that is, one in five had an increase in paranoia that was directly attributable to the THC.
OMG. Talk about bad research red flags, that summary is full of them.

But forget the news report, we've already seen they misrepresented the study in their study's introduction. Let's look at the actual study: How Cannabis Causes Paranoia: Using the Intravenous Administration of ∆9-Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) to Identify Key Cognitive Mechanisms Leading to Paranoia
Paranoia is associated with use of the most commonly taken illicit drug, cannabis.
Say what? That's a claim they started with, before they even did the study.
A total of 121 individuals with paranoid ideation were randomized
OK, stop right there. They are testing to see if IV THC increases paranoia in patients with established paranoia.

How does that apply to everyone else? In the news summary they claimed half the population met this criteria. Sure doesn't sound like it.
In this largest study of intravenous THC, it was definitively demonstrated that the drug triggers paranoid thoughts in vulnerable individuals.
Gee, I guess paranoid schizophrenics shouldn't smoke pot.:rolleyes:

Of course they claim they excluded people with mental illness diagnosis so what did they mean by already paranoid subjects:
There were 121 participants. The inclusion criteria were: aged between 21 and 50, had taken cannabis at least once before, and reported a paranoid thought in the past month as assessed by the Paranoid Thoughts Scale Part B.21 ...
Screening criteria:
did not report persecutory ideation (n = 739), had a history of mental illness (n = 281),
So they asked people if they wanted to be in a pot study and excluded people who self reported mental illness. Would you admit you had a mental illness if you wanted to be in the study?

They then only included people who reported persecutory ideation. You can read how they determined that. Were they going for people who had paranoid ideation but either were not yet diagnosed, weren't sick enough to be called ill, or were mentally ill as long as they denied it to the researchers?

That's only the more minor problems.

Here's the major one. They had three groups, one got placebo, one got the THC, and one got the THC plus educational material on the effects of THC.
The cognitive awareness condition, given before THC administration, involved a simple 5-minute educational module, explaining the range of effects that the drug can cause (THC was considered synonymous with cannabis for this procedure).

Now look at the results.:rolleyes:

The group that actually showed increased paranoia was the group they told might experience paranoia.

This study has so many problems.

I'm sorry but millions of people use marijuana on a regular basis. I can assure you these studies that purport to find all these problems are usually baloney.

If you are getting your ideas about marijuana from these news accounts you need to keep one thing in mind. There are some of the most blatantly anti-marijuana biased studies on this subject. It's on the same level as studies from the 50s that found mothers made their kids autistic. [/sidetrack]
 
And a point that everybody seems to ignore- we did not get the tox report. We only got the one data that Brown tested positive for THC. Not meth test results, no PCP results, nor coke or alcohol results .

Any of those come back positive and the 'he charged' theory is gold.

Anybody care to search gogle for <meth Ferguson, Mo > just to see the prevalence?
 
...
On the other hand, we also know that even an object five feet away can receive GPR.
But that's not relevant. I mentioned this before. It only matters what you can rule out by not having found powder or stippling. The entry wound had to be at least a foot away or more (probably more like at least 2 feet away).

If they found residue on Brown's hand, then you could say his hand had to be less than 5 feet away or whatever the maximum distance you could still find powder or stippling.
 
But the FPD is not handling the case, the SLCPD is. Perhaps whoever is submitting requests ought to try the other agency.

And I don't bel;eive FOI requsts are valid with an ongoing investigation any how.

Did you read the article? Ferguson PD are required to file a Use of Force Report. This is not related to who does any investigation. Their own policy says that the sergeant on duty that day should have filed one, but he did not. In other words, prior to the investigation, there are many pieces of paperwork, all subject to FOIA, that the FPD should have produced but didn't. But why are you sticking up for them here? If you think the shooting was justified, wouldn't any such paperwork back you up and make your job of convincing the rest of us that much easier? Why would you be against the facts of the case being released?
 
Last edited:
And a point that everybody seems to ignore- we did not get the tox report. We only got the one data that Brown tested positive for THC. Not meth test results, no PCP results, nor coke or alcohol results .

Any of those come back positive and the 'he charged' theory is gold.

Anybody care to search gogle for <meth Ferguson, Mo > just to see the prevalence?

What evidence do you have that Michael Brown was on meth, PCP, or cocaine that day?

And why would that make the theory "gold"? Wouldn't it still come down to people who were standing right there and saw the whole thing?

Finally, Google "meth"? What's that supposed to tell us about Michael Brown? Is this more of that True Skepticism I keep hearing about?
 
And a point that everybody seems to ignore- we did not get the tox report. We only got the one data that Brown tested positive for THC. Not meth test results, no PCP results, nor coke or alcohol results .

Any of those come back positive and the 'he charged' theory is gold.

Anybody care to search gogle for <meth Ferguson, Mo > just to see the prevalence?

If they had something better to leak than Mary Jane they would have leaked that instead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom