Michael Brown shooting II

[sgtbaker]

On Fox News, Mark Fuhrman pointed out that if Wilson was attacked in his car, he would not have had the opportunity to frisk Michael Brown, so he would not have known whether or not he was armed. That means he couldn't have known what type of threat he was facing.

I get that I am reconstructing this from the safety of my computer chair and it is vastly different than living the event out in real time. I don't and will never know what it feels like to experience that exact situation. There could be mitigating factors that change everything. I am not taking a position on the case itself but holding an opinion based on limited information. With my very limited knowledge about what transpired in that time, I cannot morally justify shooting at someone, calling them a threat to your person, when they are running away. I don't find Schrodinger's gun to be a compelling argument unless it turned out that some motion that Brown acted out could have been mistaken for reaching for a weapon. At this point, we do not have Wilson's version of the story, nor do we know what has been turned up in the investigation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We don't know that officer Wilson emptied his firearm, or if he routinely kept a round in the chamber.

Keeping a round in the chamber increases the likelihood of an accidental discharge.

Like the one out the car window?

 

[sgtbaker]

Brown's palm only needed to be a foot or more away from the gun to have no powder or stippling according to Baden.

If Johnson's account is accurate about the shot out the window hitting Brown, (and I don't think it's relevant if the shot did or did not hit Brown), that hand graze and the reentry wound in the right side of the chest are consistent with Johnson's account.

No it's only relevant to the visuals I have been trying to create. Like I said, it's not a case cracking question.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is a fast moving thread! I'm having a hard time keeping up, so I apologize if already considered. From what I understand there seems to be disagreement on just how MB head could have been in a lowered position for the final (maybe) 2 shots.

It seems we have these options:

1) Surrendering
2) Tripping
3) Charging

If for the moment, we ignore motivation, thought process, dumb decisions on, etc. on either side, why option 3 is not considered valid possibility to explain the head positions is beyond me.

#3 doesn't explain the bullet trajectory.

#3 isn't likely from a logical POV. Brown was a distance away, he was being shot at, he has no history of going bonkers in a fit of rage one would need to charge at a cop who not only has his gun out, but is already shooting at you.

And what Unaboogie said.

 

[jk143]

#3 doesn't explain the bullet trajectory.

Why not? Honest question.

#3 isn't likely from a logical POV.

Which is why I added the disclaimer about excluding motivations, dumb decisions, etc. I am simply asking, if it is possible. In your first reason, you say it doesn't explain the trajectory. I am looking to understand that....simply saying it doesn't, does not make it so. And this is not just for SG, anyone with insight into why that could not account for the bullet strike, please comment.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No it's only relevant to the visuals I have been trying to create. Like I said, it's not a case cracking question.

Fitting the evidence to the eye-witness accounts:

There's a struggle at the car, the gun goes off, hits Brown in the palm and reenters his chest. The wound is not life threatening.

Brown panics and runs.

Wilson gets out and starts shooting at Brown (the volley of 6).

One round hits Wilson (the arm graze) (only seconds are going by here).

And either the arm hit, the fact Wilson is shooting or both, Brown gets a grip on his panic and turns around to surrender. Within this action, Wilson shooting 6 rounds, Brown getting hit in the arm, Brown stopping and turning around, it all takes place during the volley of 6 shots.

Wilson pauses for 3 seconds.

Now either because his anger is still boiling/unspent, or because he negligently perceives Brown's attempt to surrender as coming toward him, Wilson fires four more rounds.

But during that 3 seconds Wilson wasn't shooting, Brown has to have at least gotten down, started to get down, fell down or completely doubled over (which explains both Brady's and Mitchell's accounts) in order to explain the trajectory of the fatal head shot that then dropped Brown causing the facial injuries Baden described.

In either case, unspent anger or negligently not recognizing Brown was not attacking, Wilson used excessive force killing Brown unnecessarily.

That Wilson seems to have made up the claim Brown was charging at him (if we are getting accurate accounts of Wilson's story) because the physical evidence simply does not bear that claim out, and especially if he made up the claim Brown taunted him which definitely doesn't fit the physical evidence, then that suggests to me that Wilson knows full well he shot those last 4 shots in anger.

That last part is just my speculative opinion. We don't really know what Wilson's actual story is. I accept that he might have negligently shot because he imagined Brown coming at him.

I don't accept that there is any evidence Brown was charging or threatening Wilson. You have to suspend critical thinking and accept the racist stereotype of black men and the racist stereotype that all the black witnesses are conspiring against Wilson to think that was the case.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why not? Honest question.



Which is why I added the disclaimer about excluding motivations, dumb decisions, etc. I am simply asking, if it is possible. In your first reason, you say it doesn't explain the trajectory. I am looking to understand that....simply saying it doesn't, does not make it so. And this is not just for SG, anyone with insight into why that could not account for the bullet strike, please comment.

Because the trajectory is not just with Brown's head being down, the bullet angled toward the face. Brown's head was either curled all the way like you would if you were starting a summersault, or his head was down lower than the level of Wilson's gun.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

OnlyTellsTruths noted a key issue: you are selective in what you call a lie, calling one truth a lie and ignoring one lie by not calling it.

She notes you chose a minor point (the number of shots) while ignoring the key point (evidence of shooting at Brown as he fled).

And what do you do? You ignore the key issue and post something irrelevant to that point.

No, OnlyTellsTruths is incorrect. I did not ignore the claim that wilson shot at brown as he fled, I even linked to the only source of the police confirming it upthread.

And the number of shots is not a minor point.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And here you do the same thing.

Ask you to back up your vague claims ? Yup. Yet here you ignore my request again to provide specifics, and hand-wave away again ....

You said Brown was shot at from behind but not hit.

No, I say that's a possible scenario. Because other posters claim he has to have been hit from behind to make the count work.

Right here

Well let me just start by saying that if we find out there were more than 11 shots fired (from shell casings) then this won't be correct, but the reason I'm assuming the shot to the arm came from behind is because without that being true, the math doesn't add up. So let's start with a big IF.

We point out at least one bullet wound indicated Brown might have been hit from behind.

And instead of admitting you were wrong, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BROWN WAS NOT HIT FROM BEHIND, you go off on another tangent.

A tangent ? No, I claim that the only thing you have is the POSSIBILITY he was hit from behind.

And that's only because 1 medical examiner is hedging his bets.

The state autopsy said 6 shots, from the front.

And to be hit from behind would be odd, as I and Giz and others have explained.

IOW, although maybe possible, current evidence makes it unlikely he actually was hit from behind.

 

[BenBurch]

And you, being a medical examiner, have standing to make such a claim of professional misconduct?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I get it you are on the side that is not excusing Wilson, but really, this statement is right out of the 60s anti-drug fantasies.

If that happens with pot, it's incredibly rare and I can't see it applying to Johnson or Brown.

Seriously? I thought this was pretty commonly accepted, even among pro-drug people. Anyway, a recent study indicates that it does indeed induce paranoia, and it's not "incredibly rare", either:

Half of those given THC experienced paranoia, compared with 30% of the placebo group: that is, one in five had an increase in paranoia that was directly attributable to the THC.

Clearly cannabis doesn’t cause these problems for everyone. And the suspiciousness wore off as the drug left the bloodstream. But the study does show that paranoia isn’t tenuously linked to THC: for a significant number of people, it’s a direct result.

So, there's a bit more to it than "60s anti-drug fantasies". AFAIK, no studies have linked aggression to cannabis, though. It seems to be the polar opposite to alcohol, at least in that regard.

 

[pakeha]

This isn't a case cracking question, just something I am curious about. In Johnson's account, Brown was shot once during the confrontation in the car. I know he said that he was shot and saw blood from the shot in the car, in the interview on the street. I believe he said it on the second television interview as well but I am not sure. Is it possible that the graze occurred in the car which accounts for the discrepancy in grouping of wounds? I would imagine it is more difficult to determine distance with a graze, especially without the clothing to test for GSR. Is that possible?

This has been my idea, too, that the graze occurred in the car.

Brown's palm only needed to be a foot or more away from the gun to have no powder or stippling according to Baden.[ . . . ]

On the other hand, we also know that even an object five feet away can receive GPR.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And you, being a medical examiner, have standing to make such a claim of professional misconduct?

About the same standing as you.

I don't know why you would think I was doing anything other than expressing my opinion, like you and the other participants in this thread.

 

[Unabogie]

This has been my idea, too, that the graze occurred in the car.

On the other hand, we also know that even an object five feet away can receive GPR.

This is why it's been so unfortunate the the FPD have been unwilling to reveal the basic facts of the shooting to the public. The Brown family could not get a look at the clothing, so all they have to go on is that there was no GSR on Brown's body. Incidentally, if the gun was fired with Brown's hand close to the gun, as in actively reaching for the gun, you'd figure at least some part of his body would have GSR. Especially the hand that was allegedly reaching in.

But until the FPD releases those details (as they did for the toxicology report and the video of the Cigar Caper) then we're just left guessing.

 

[Cain]

Fitting the evidence to the eye-witness accounts:

This is your problem. Or one of them. You're allowing initial media reports to lay the foundation of your narrative, and new evidence merely fits within that pre-determined structure.

...

Wilson pauses for 3 seconds.

Now either because his anger is still boiling...

This is so ridiculously biased. Wilson is "boiling" from an assault that his critics have been downplaying, but Brown -- a stupid and impulsive robber -- is not upset about getting caught and shot? That's not possible?

or because [Wilson] negligently perceives Brown's attempt to surrender as coming toward him, Wilson fires four more rounds.

So it's not possible that Brown was making a move? It's not possible that Wilson made an honest mistake? No, Wilson negligently mistook a peaceful surrender for an attack.

It's also interesting how Wilson's rage completely overtakes his training. He gets the suspect to turn around, but he doesn't say "on the ground." The gainfully employed man with no criminal record decides to commit homicide. The jobless robber facing an arrest record does everything to comply, even dies falling forward.

That Wilson seems to have made up the claim Brown was charging at him (if we are getting accurate accounts of Wilson's story)

But Brown's charge is independently confirmed by someone on the street who is overheard in the youtube video mentioned half a dozen times (importantly, before the narrative took hold in the public consciousness). But none of this gives you pause. Wilson's guilty.

 

[pakeha]

This is why it's been so unfortunate the the FPD have been unwilling to reveal the basic facts of the shooting to the public. The Brown family could not get a look at the clothing, so all they have to go on is that there was no GSR on Brown's body. Incidentally, if the gun was fired with Brown's hand close to the gun, as in actively reaching for the gun, you'd figure at least some part of his body would have GSR. Especially the hand that was allegedly reaching in.

But until the FPD releases those details (as they did for the toxicology report and the video of the Cigar Caper) then we're just left guessing.

Would it be normal procedure, to publish details of an on-going investigation?

 

[Unabogie]

Would it be normal procedure, to publish details of an on-going investigation?

It's likely dependent upon the state in question. In Florida, almost everything comes out because of "sunshine" laws. In this case, however, the police leaked the tox report and the video of the "robbery". Since apparently there was nothing preventing the release ot more relevant details, such as the number of bullets fired, the location of the shells, and the number of times Brown was shot. Not of those facts are inflammatory or inculpate the shooter. They're just facts. Why can't the public find them out?

 

[Elagabalus]

Ask you to back up your vague claims ? Yup. Yet here you ignore my request again to provide specifics, and hand-wave away again ....



No, I say that's a possible scenario. Because other posters claim he has to have been hit from behind to make the count work.

Right here

​

A tangent ? No, I claim that the only thing you have is the POSSIBILITY he was hit from behind.

And that's only because 1 medical examiner is hedging his bets.

The state autopsy said 6 shots, from the front.

And to be hit from behind would be odd, as I and Giz and others have explained.

IOW, although maybe possible, current evidence makes it unlikely he actually was hit from behind.

Here's the scene from top view.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-enhanced-audio-transcription-of-eye-witness/

(sorry about the link)

Browns body is a good 100 to 125 ft. away from Wilson's SUV. When would Brown have time to taunt Wilson? The 3 second gap in firing would explain Wilson coming up to Brown. There are three evidence cones by Brown's body which are suspected to be the shell casings of Wilson's gun. If that assessment is correct then Wilson is in very close proximity to Brown when he shoots.

If you want to go with the Bull-rush hypothesis -Brown would have had to have been even further away than 125 ft. in order to come back and get shot by Wilson.

 

[sadhatter]

I don't know what he would say, and neither do you. This will never get to trial, so it won't matter anyway.

What it boils down to is this: you have an officer with a clean record versus a thug with weed in his system who just committed a robbery. The star eyewitness also happens to have been with Brown during the robbery, and claims Brown was "shot in the back", which he wasn't. The autopsy report is, at best, inconclusive.

No prosecutor in the world would touch a case like that, no jury would convict him, and if Wilson was injured by Brown, the chances of him being tried drop from about 2% to 0%.

You know i agree with you, by all evidence brown was attacking the cop, and got what is expected if one does that, i believe both the robbery and possible prior record are important to understanding him and why he did what he did, that being said.

Why is everyone suddenly harping on the weed in his system? Of all the evidence, thus seems unimportant. Not only does it stay in ones system for a while after consumption for consistent users, but let's be honest here, it's weed. Not exactly known for causing violent behavior, and if he is a consistent user, as i have no trouble believing he was, it's not the type odd thing that is going to make one suddenly attack a cop.

 

[WildCat]

Been lurking this thread for a while now, and I don't intend to get much involved now in it since there's so little information available at this time.

However, there is one thing I'd like to say about the picture that some here say shows brass near Wilson's SUV. It just doesn't look like shell casings to me. It looks segmented, the shape is wrong. Granted it's a fuzzy pic but it doesn't look like shell casings to me. And I shoot a lot of .40 and reload it, I know what it looks like!

Also, some of the most popular ammunition used by police uses nickel plated brass, it is silver in color not brass color. This would include Hornady Critical Duty, Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra Shok, and Winchester Ranger T. Those 4 probably account for the ammo in at least 80% of duty guns.

Also, you'll need the actual gun used loaded with the same ammunition to know where the casings tend to end up. It's common to replace the factory recoil springs in a pistol to match the ammunition you commonly shoot, this will affect how far and the angle casings are ejected. The factory spring is 16lbs, but replacements are available from 13-21lbs. Same with different brands of ammunition in the same gun.

Back to lurk mode.