Mexican Airforce films UFOs

[wipeout]

In an interesting side note, it appears that all the work done in this forum is nothing more than a hoax. Santiago Yturria has stated that the oil well fire explanation is nothing more than a hoax generated by a single person. I assume this exposed "hoaxer" is Captain Franz but he does not say. Congratulations everyone for creating a hoax explanation.

Damn it! We've been found out!

If it wasn't for those pesky UFOlogists, we'd have gotten away with it too...

They've got to admit that us sneaking into the Gulf of Mexico at night and secretly moving several kilometer-wide oil-platforms to make their oil-flares line up with the infrared sources in the footage is an impressive bit of hoaxing, though.

When we hoax, we hoax big!

 

[wipeout]

Hello Wipeout,

Here is a post from Dr. Julio Herrera who wrote clarifying his posture and his comments. I think it is fair to let all of you know this.

Okay, thank you.

I can't find Mummymonkey

A few months ago, I used the personal messaging option of this forum to contact him. You might try that if you haven't already.

From: Dr. Julio Herrera -herrera@nuclecu.unam.mx-
Date: September 28, 2004 9:05 am
To: Cap. Alejandro Franz -director@alcione.org-

Dear Cap. Franz,

I saw your page on the "oil flare hypothesis". I'm thankful that
you gave me the credit on the basis of something that was
published at some web page, where indeed it looks like it's my
idea. However, I must clarify that's a misunderstanding
induced by the reporter who wrote the note. I can't tell where
the idea originated.

In any case, I recognize this hypothesis may explain many things.
What matters by the end is to find out the true about this affair.

Best regards,
Julio Herrera

P.S.: I'm writing this in English so you may quote me if you wish.
--
Dr. Julio Herrera
Instituto de Ciencias Nucleares, UNAM
A.P. 70-543, Ciudad Universitaria
Del. Coyoacán, 04511 México, D.F. MEXICO
tel.: +52-55-56224672; FAX: +52-55-56162233
e-mail: herrera@nuclecu.unam.mx

Interestingly, it sounds like it may have been the reporter who knew that the oil-platforms were there. I did wonder that at the time I first read the original article.

Althought different people had different ideas first, I'd say it was a joint effort of a lot of people -- possibly including this reporter -- that put together the apparent explanation.

 

[Kitty Chan]

In an interesting side note, it appears that all the work done in this forum is nothing more than a hoax. Santiago Yturria has stated that the oil well fire explanation is nothing more than a hoax generated by a single person. I assume this exposed "hoaxer" is Captain Franz but he does not say. Congratulations everyone for creating a hoax explanation.

It was said that it was important that a Government had come forward and not covered it up. What the actual explanation of what happened is secondary. Now its being said in this article that if you question this, you are questioning the air force.

Truth and facts are becoming secondary to agendas. Agenda in the way that the cry of ufoists is that the government is covering up, now one hasnt and they will not let that go.

 

[Patricio Elicer]

Damn it! We've been found out!

If it wasn't for those pesky UFOlogists, we'd have gotten away with it too...

They've got to admit that us sneaking into the Gulf of Mexico at night and secretly moving several kilometer-wide oil-platforms to make their oil-flares line up with the infrared sources in the footage is an impressive bit of hoaxing, though.

When we hoax, we hoax big!

See?, we were caught!. I told you it was not going to work. I think we better move those platforms back to their original position, soon

Seriously now, I'm curious to know the details of the alleged hoax. I think nobody is willing to involve the Mexican Air Force in a hoax of this sort, implying that they made up the footage, the conversations and the interviews. Then, how can this case be possibly hoaxed?

Well, there are people out there saying that the moon landing was a hoax, or that humans dropped nuclear bombs on the Sidonea region on Mars to destroy "The Face" after it was revealed by Global Surveyor that it is merely a mountaneous feature. So I guess we can expect any far-fetched explanation in this case as well.

 

[Patricio Elicer]

Re: So much for so little

In respect of this, I worked out a theorem to have a guide towards a solution (remember that I study this case due to my interest in philosophy of science, and not because I care about ETs). My result is this:
<center>

(click to enlarge)
</center>

The green and blue points on the travel line are points used for the theorem.

Well, I'm stuck at this point. I have some comments/questions regarding "The Theorem", and please pardon my ignorance if I'm mistaken.

1) When you refer to the "green and blue points", you mean the "blue and red points", don't you?

2) If I re-write the formula, for either alpha or beta frames, this way:

KA = l Az l + (HM + AaO)

Then I figure that (HM + AaO) represents a correction term for systematical error on the instrument azimuth readings. I can understand HM's role in it, but I don't get AaO's. Quite likely I don't understand AaO's definition to begin with.

3) It's interesting to note that in both points, blue and red, the instrument azimuth readings are shifted in clockwise fashion with respect to the known values (5.1º and 7.5º resp), which is probably a regular pattern of the camera miscalibration.

 

[wipeout]

See?, we were caught!. I told you it was not going to work. I think we better move those platforms back to their original position, soon

Okay, you were right. When we put them back, let's paint them a very slightly different colour just to subconsciously unnerve the oil-workers.

Hey, I hear someone has just spotted strange lights moving around in the sky. Tonight, we had better sneak in and move an airport in the direction they were spotted.

Seriously now, I'm curious to know the details of the alleged hoax. I think nobody is willing to involve the Mexican Air Force in a hoax of this sort, implying that they made up the footage, the conversations and the interviews. Then, how can this case be possibly hoaxed?

I can understand why you might think that but I think what Yturria seems to mean is that the UFO believers are calling the oil flare explanation the hoax!

Yturria says:

During the broadcast every element of the Campeche case was
analysed, proving and confirming the unknown origin and nature
of the phenomena.

I think they're calling Captain Franz the hoaxer for pointing out that the oil flares are what caused it. They cannot accept that it isn't flying saucers and are trying to discredit the explanation!

 

[Capt.Franz]

I think they're calling Captain Franz the hoaxer for pointing out that the oil flares are what caused it. They cannot accept that it isn't flying saucers and are trying to discredit the explanation!

Hello Wipeout and all,

You are right once again. I am the "hoaxer"


A coward journalist named Jaime Maussan instead of facing me in UFO UpDates list or calling me to present my theory
he decided to use his nationwide TV show to expose my page at ALCIONE.ORG and used his talking skills to call out
loud my name and request to my company 'Aeromexico' to take care from 'a mexican pilot' who has offended the Mexican
Air Force pilots all around the world. All what I did was answer when my opinion was needed in UFO UpDates list.
He also called Dr. Bruce Maccabee a 'hoax promoter' so here maybe is going to be a lawsuit.

You may follow the thread of my messages here:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/cgi-bin/search-email.cgi?index=/ufo/updates/&key=alfafox

Anyway, I am calm, my family is giving me all the support and help so I don't have to worry because I know the truth
always will win. I have been doing this since 1963 and I can deal with this stormy weather. Piece of cake.

Thank you ALL for your kind interest in my work and I am peaceful an laughing with my mouth wide open. Here in Mexico
we have our Constitution who protects freedom of speech so while I am still investigating the case and telling the
truth there are some obstacles I knew they will arrive as today.

Please visit the UFO UpDates list an read what I told to John Velez '-rumormonger of Maussan-'
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m18-001.shtml

For those who would like to see the sunday 27 video in spanish (wmv) here:
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CAMPECHE/video_maussan_pozos.wmv

Jaime Maussan accused me of offending the Mexican Air Force pilots
using a post from Albert Lehmberg in UFO UpDates list, see:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m14-014.shtml

Here is Frank Warren's input which Alfred Lehmberg didn't reply:
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m16-002.shtml

This is Jaime Maussan's frenzy and delirium...

Military UFO video could be key to credibility in enthusiast's career
(Jaime Maussan) http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/aug/m08-001.shtml

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
(non-profit)

P.D. I will post this to UFO UpDates list.

 

[wipeout]

I hope this goes well for you, Captain Franz. And I hope it goes badly for your opponents.

Being attacked on national television must be a bit of a shock. I'm glad that you're taking it in your stride.

If the oil flare explanation wasn't well known before, then Maussen has made a mistake by trying to discredit it as it'll be a lot more widely known now.

I didn't understand much from the video, other than they certainly tried to discredit the oil flare thoery by the camera's elevation angle. Thomas has studied the answers for that from an expert.

If I was in your position, I'd contact prominent skeptics and skeptical groups who might give help and advice.

Perhaps we should contact James Randi again and see what he thinks of all this.

 

[Astrophotographer]

Hello Wipeout and all,

You are right once again. I am the "hoaxer"


A coward journalist named Jaime Maussan instead of facing me in UFO UpDates list or calling me to present my theory
he decided to use his nationwide TV show to expose my page at ALCIONE.ORG and used his talking skills to call out
loud my name and request to my company 'Aeromexico' to take care from 'a mexican pilot' who has offended the Mexican
Air Force pilots all around the world. All what I did was answer when my opinion was needed in UFO UpDates list.
He also called Dr. Bruce Maccabee a 'hoax promoter' so here maybe is going to be a lawsuit.

Sad to say that Maussan is considered the lead authority in Mexico. Even sadder is the lack of any significant response to these comments on the Updates list. I guess most on that list are still interested in maintaining this event "unknown", which is what I predicted in my webpage article.

 

[Capt.Franz]

Sad to say that Maussan is considered the lead authority in Mexico. Even sadder is the lack of any significant response to these comments on the Updates list. I guess most on that list are still interested in maintaining this event "unknown", which is what I predicted in my webpage article.

Hello Astrophotographer,

You are right, if they accept the oil wells flames to be the
source of the sighting the media would lost interest in it
and by that less money and audience. Just business...

regards,

Capt.Franz

 

[Thomas]

Re: Re: So much for so little

Is your webpage going to go back on line soon?

When/if my last report will come up again, it'll be concerned with the research process seen here, on other boards and mailing lists. What is relevant in relation to your report, would rather be the calculations I guess. Well, I dont know, maybe it would be better to link to this board instead?

The thing is, that if a reader has no interest in philosophy of science it would be easy to think: "What does this has to do with this case?".

Another thing is, that all the AoA business in my last report has proven to be incorrect, so it would demand quite a rewrite - to say the least. It gets even worse, because AoA (which, in this case, is a wrong definition) only takes account of the airplanes pitch, and then we also have roll and yaw. It's quite a job to get all these things in order for this particular case, or should I say rather impossible? So here we are, sorry for any inconvenience this may have, or will, cause you.

 

[Thomas]

Re: Re: So much for so little

I can't say that I ever paid much attention to this first group as I barely noticed them so, for me, you've brought up a new problem.

Thinking about this -- and also the disappearance of the most distinct flares people called "the twins" has always bothered me a little as they would surely would be the most easily spotted again after the cloud-- I realized a possible solution.

I came back to the important fact that the horizon is invisible at that range in infrared but also that clouds that are perhaps some kilometers closer to the camera will also be invisible. Just because we can't see these distant clouds, doesn't mean that they're not there and the blankness of the background -- and thus the apparent clearness of the very distant sky -- may be seriously misleading us.

These clouds which are invisible to the camera at that distance could block the line of sight to parts of the oil-field.

So I suggest that "the twins", your "c" formation and "s" formation appear and disappear because distant clouds which are invisible to the camera are revealing and hiding them.

Indeed, good point.

The "c" and "s" formations might indeed be partly seperate or completely seperate oil-platforms.

I had actually briefly wondered myself how the flares like "the twins" seem to appear and disappear so quickly. Well, that's an explanation.

And like you say, there might be a whole other set of oil-platforms to fit to this first formation.

Yes, that's another possibility. At least, the FOV changes between the Clan and the Stray observations.

You know the square (where only the corners are visible) you'll see in most of the video. That shows what you'll be able to see in the next - stronger - zoom mode.

Er... where did those guys get the satellite pictures from again?

I think the final job of "fingerprinting" all the platforms responsible might be only half finished.

IIRC, I believe Smith got them from some of the Landsat satellites (maybe Landsat 7?). Let's get him in here right now!

Sounds like this confirms my suggestions that the light patterns under "the twins" were water reflections due to infrared just outside the human visible range reflecting just like it does in the human visible range.

Yes it does. I believe Franz had something to say about this as well, in his report.

 

[Thomas]

Re: Re: So much for so little

1) When you refer to the "green and blue points", you mean the "blue and red points", don't you?

Exactly. I saw this mixup after I couldn't edit it anymore, but thought it to be obvious enough to not mention it. Good you pointed it out though, because maybe someone else has been in doubt as well.

2) If I re-write the formula, for either alpha or beta frames, this way:

KA = l Az l + (HM + AaO)

Then I figure that (HM + AaO) represents a correction term for systematical error on the instrument azimuth readings. I can understand HM's role in it, but I don't get AaO's. Quite likely I don't understand AaO's definition to begin with.

HM can be several things, even things we haven't thought of. AaO is the bearing of the airplane. All the measures are made w.r.t. North of East angles (East = 0 degrees). But, the azimuth readouts are measured w.r.t. the airplanes bearing (as you know already). So, AaO has impact on the SAFIREs azimuth readout - unless the airplane has a bearing of true east of course.

3) It's interesting to note that in both points, blue and red, the instrument azimuth readings are shifted in clockwise fashion with respect to the known values (5.1º and 7.5º resp), which is probably a regular pattern of the camera miscalibration.

The main reason is merely what I've just described above. The thing is that the airplane is headed towards east, but also slightly north. This is why you'll see that pattern, that the inclinations shift in a clockwise fashion. I suspect that the HM will be very small, and the real deal here is to find an exact method for determining the bearing of the airplane at these timestamps (AaO). If one can make a plausible method which can be used to find both inclinations, well, then the theorem has been proven.

Just for the fun of it, let's say we measured an average angle of 5 degrees bearing from the AKAL-C observation to the Moon observation, and use that as an AaO value in the theorem (for both alpha and beta - just for fun). Then were pretty close already.
If I make no sense here, please just ask again, and I'll see if I can find a better way of explaining this. No questions are stupid, only my explanations is - but I'm working on it

 

[Dr Adequate]

Re: Re: Re: So much for so little

Just for the fun of it, let's say we measured an average angle of 5 degrees bearing from the AKAL-C observation to the Moon observation, and use that as an AaO value in the theorem (for both alpha and beta - just for fun).

It takes all sorts to make a world, doesn't it?

 

[Thomas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: So much for so little

It takes all sorts to make a world, doesn't it?

I guess you're right, but I don't really know what it has to do with this?
I'm trying to explain part of the theorem which was poorly explained - using a strongly hypothetical example. I don't think I got your point there, could you please elaborate?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I was implying that you have a really, really strange idea of "fun"...

 

[Thomas]

I was implying that you have a really, really strange idea of "fun"...

I guess you're right again

 

[wipeout]

Re: Re: Re: So much for so little

IIRC, I believe Smith got them from some of the Landsat satellites (maybe Landsat 7?). Let's get him in here right now!

Ah, I found today he lists where he got the images:

http://home.earthlink.net/~bigvideo4/mexican_ufo.html

The FTP place is not immediately obvious how to navigate around it, it has a special image viewer and it also said "downloading 103 megabytes"... when I tried to look at one image.

Now that's a big picture.

I might get back to it later and see if the Landsat stuff shows other platforms as in your "c" group and "the twins".

Today, I also noticed from a Google search to see how many people are still following this case that over the last couple of months Captain Franz has been posting summaries in various internet forums.

Standard reaction from people in forums: "It's a silly theory as the UFOs appeared on radar!"

Which as we know, of course, is not what the aircrew said.

I'm ever so slightly tempted to join these forums...

 

[Capt.Franz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: So much for so little

Today, I also noticed from a Google search to see how many people are still following this case that over the last couple of months Captain Franz has been posting summaries in various internet forums.

Standard reaction from people in forums: "It's a silly theory as the UFOs appeared on radar!"

Which as we know, of course, is not what the aircrew said.

I'm ever so slightly tempted to join these forums...

Hi there,

It is very difficult to promote my work but worst is to make
people to visit the related pages, read carefully the data and
then emit their thoughts. No way, they are UFO's!

It's kind of wierd humans are frantic when turn on their TV's
and take for real what in a UFO tricky show is presented.

Regads,

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated
the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable,
must be the truth?" -Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four -

 

[Capt.Franz]

I hope this goes well for you, Captain Franz. And I hope it goes badly for your opponents.

Being attacked on national television must be a bit of a shock. I'm glad that you're taking it in your stride.

Please all call me Alex...ok?

Thank you Wipeout, I was shocked at first now I am calm.

If the oil flare explanation wasn't well known before, then Maussen has made a mistake by trying to discredit it as it'll be a lot more widely known now.

I don't know how stupid they are, what really makes me think is how far this people are willing to go and why?