Mexican Airforce films UFOs

Astrophotographer said:
It appears that Captain Franz has read my webpage and has taken notice of this forum.

He has an interesting video that is worth the download. He also seems to have acknowledged wipeout as one of the first to recognize this possible solution. I hope to update my webpage soon but have been somewhat busy and I also am curious as to the response on the UFO Updates list. Based on what I have read, I think some have become more receptive to the idea of this explanation. However, some of the biggest opponents of the oil well fire theory have remained silent.

Hello Astrophotographer(Tim), Wipeout and all members.

I am not only satisfied but gratefull to you and all who have
followed my research on this case that is almost cocluded.

I would like to add this from my web page for the record:

Source:
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html

I think BEFORE myself and Richard Gemmell aka "wipeout"
the credit belongs to Julio Herrera, a mexican nuclear science
researcher at Mexico's National Autonomous University who
said on MAY 13th, 2004:

"He said more data than is available on the videotape would
be necessary to determine if that hypothesis is correct, including
precise information on atmospheric conditions at the time the
lights appeared."

"The Campeche coast on the Gulf of Mexico, where the objects
were filmed, is Mexico's main oil- and gas-producing region.
Oil platforms release or burn off some of the gas they produce."

Sources:

CNEWS:http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2004/05/11/455568-ap.html
SPTIMES:http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/14/Worldandnation/UFOs_could_be_gas_lig.shtml

In this important step of extraterrestrial contact, it doesn't mater
who is first but who is right.

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
 
Ah, hello, Captain Franz. :D

I'd like to point something out to both you and Astrophotographer.

It wasn't me but it was actually a different forum member here at the JREF forums who was the first person to suggest oil flares.

mummymonkey said:
As it stands I still think the objects may be on the ground some distance to the north. Perhaps at sea. Are there oil/gas rigs in that area?

3rd post down from the top on this page:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40244&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

I suggested the hot spots were industrial chimneys in Ciudad del Carmen but it was Mummymonkey who suggested it was oil/gas flares at sea and I confirmed that there were oil facilities on land and at sea in the Campeche area by doing internet searches.

The nuclear scientist, Julio Herrera, he doesn't suggest oil flares are what are seen in the footage, he suggests some kind of strange electrical flashes way up in the sky possibly related to oil facilities.

It was Mummymonkey who was the first to suggest the correct answer for the main part of the incident.

Please credit him, not me. :)
 
Capt. Franz,

Welcome to the forums, I'm glad to see you aboard.

Just wanted to congratulate you for your fine job regarding this case.

As wipeout mentioned earlier, there are many more here who also deserve to be credited for their great contributions on solving this mystery. Certainly Mummymonkey shares the top position with him.

I'm looking forward to reading more from you on this board.
 
wipeout said:
Ah, hello, Captain Franz. :D

I'd like to point something out to both you and Astrophotographer.

It wasn't me but it was actually a different forum member here at the JREF forums who was the first person to suggest oil flares.



3rd post down from the top on this page:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40244&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

I suggested the hot spots were industrial chimneys in Ciudad del Carmen but it was Mummymonkey who suggested it was oil/gas flares at sea and I confirmed that there were oil facilities on land and at sea in the Campeche area by doing internet searches.

The nuclear scientist, Julio Herrera, he doesn't suggest oil flares are what are seen in the footage, he suggests some kind of strange electrical flashes way up in the sky possibly related to oil facilities.

It was Mummymonkey who was the first to suggest the correct answer for the main part of the incident.

Please credit him, not me. :)

Mummymonkey wasn't right, he said "the objects may be on
the ground some distance to the north" and he wasn't right,
the objects were northwest. Mummymonkey posted on may
14 and Herrera related post was on may 13th.

I am not a credit deliverer, nor a judge, I am a UFO researcher
who is looking forward for answers, not credits. This is not a
racing street or contest, we have to look forward to know if
human kind is ready or not to approach an appropriate level
to have an ET contact. What do you think ET's need from us?
Credits or knowledge?

One more question, how did you know about Campeche's
oil rigs? Can you give a background data supporting your
oil well theory? Can you afford data before may 13th 2004?

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
 
wipeout said:
It was Mummymonkey who was the first to suggest the correct answer for the main part of the incident.

Please credit him, not me. :)

I was just giving you credit because you appeared to make the first connection with heat sources in the area. Certainly, MummyMonkey made the next leap in the process to resolve the issue.
In my searching on the web about this case, I noticed others also made the oil well fire connection. Which persons made it first is hard to pinpoint. However, it seems there are a good number that have confirmed the theory.
I came into this discussion much later than those that started it. However, I was impressed by how the discussion progressed looking back at the postings. While I would not consider it a perfect process, there was a great deal of interaction and open discussion that kept revealing a new piece of information each day. Sadly, as one can see by my webpage this was not the case on the one forum devoted for UFO research. There seemed to be more pontification than open discussion on possible sources after the release of the video. It wasn't until Captain Franz posted his comments did anyone openly admit that this was a possibility. Immediately after his presentation, this theory was subjected to the usual knee-jerk response to possible explanations that often occurs on that list. As Robert Sheaffer noted, not one of the UFO "leaders" on the list bothered to state that the oil well flame idea had merit.
I believe the Captain Franz video is another step in confirming the solution to this case. Until those supporting this as a case of true "UFOS" provide a solid argument against the oil well theory, I think the case is pretty much closed.
 
Patricio Elicer said:
Capt. Franz,

Welcome to the forums, I'm glad to see you aboard.

Just wanted to congratulate you for your fine job regarding this case.

As wipeout mentioned earlier, there are many more here who also deserve to be credited for their great contributions on solving this mystery. Certainly Mummymonkey shares the top position with him.

I'm looking forward to reading more from you on this board.

Hello Patricio, thank you for your welcome message.

I have been in the UFO investigation since 1963 and here and
there it is a sense that who speaks first is the one who lead
the theme and has a positive credit. That's wrong, I think the
main purpose is to give true and honest information that could
feed human knowledge about ET existence. It doesn't matter
who or why, it does matter what you learn from that.

I don't care if you or anyone give me a credit or not.
I care if my results are good enough to feed your needs.

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
 
Capt. Franz,

I learned about Campeche's oil industry when I was doing internet searches on Ciudad del Carmen and Campeche to see what was in the area, such as airports and industry that might explain the heat sources in the footage.

I also found the news story about Herrera's theory which included the information that there were oil platforms there (and I posted the link to the article here), but Herrera believed the heat sources in the footage were flying electrical flashes, which I found unlikely and I suggested that the footage fitted our theory here at the JREF of it being heat sources from industry.

It doesn't matter to me if anyone credits me or not for anything. I only did some UFO investigating for fun. And when I asked Mummymonkey a month or so back, getting credit didn't seem to matter to him either.

So people can credit (or not) whoever they like. :)
 
Astrophotographer said:
I was just giving you credit because you appeared to make the first connection with heat sources in the area. Certainly, MummyMonkey made the next leap in the process to resolve the issue.

I think, if any, just a credit to the JREF forum would do. It bothers me that I might be credited for something I didn't say.

As Robert Sheaffer noted, not one of the UFO "leaders" on the list bothered to state that the oil well flame idea had merit.

So much for any of them boasting of being "unlike skeptics" and "keeping an open mind"... ;)
 
wipeout said:
Capt. Franz,

I also found the news story about Herrera's theory which included the information that there were oil platforms there (and I posted the link to the article here), but Herrera believed the heat sources in the footage were flying electrical flashes, which I found unlikely and I suggested that the footage fitted our theory here at the JREF of it being heat sources from industry.

--------------------


Herrera said on may 13th:

"The Campeche coast on the Gulf of Mexico, where the objects
were filmed, is Mexico's main oil- and gas-producing region.
Oil platforms release or burn off some of the gas they produce."


Regards,

Capt. Franz
 
Captain Franz,

I'd be perfectly happy to credit Herrera if he had suggested the correct solution first to the Mexican airforce UFOs, but he didn't do that.

If I was to write an article myself, and if I included who said what first, then in that article I'd say Mummymonkey and myself were both on the right track but that he was the first to suggest the correct answer to the main part of the incident, which I then confirmed was a very real possibility. I'd then credit you for coming up with the same solution independently and your investigation for identifying the actual platforms involved and gathering much interesting additional information.

I'd only mention Herrera in passing as someone who was speculating about rare electrical phenomena high up in the atmosphere somehow related to the oil-industry.

Personally, however, I'm not concerned who gets what credit.

I've never contacted anyone who had written articles crediting others to point out we at the JREF had come to the correct solution first, even though it seems we were.

I was just happy to have helped solve a UFO mystery before it became something for UFO believers to really believe in.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on Herrera's place in this, but I will end by saying that I enjoyed reading about your own investigation and the information you and others put together was a great effort. :)
 
wipeout said:
Captain Franz,

I'd be perfectly happy to credit Herrera if he had suggested the correct solution first to the Mexican airforce UFOs, but he didn't do that.

snip

I was just happy to have helped solve a UFO mystery before it became something for UFO believers to really believe in.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on Herrera's place in this, but I will end by saying that I enjoyed reading about your own investigation and the information you and others put together was a great effort. :)

Now we are all happy.

If you like to visit the page with the un-cut translation
of the video here: http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/

If really somebody wants to help I need to include the video
timing, I am flying very often and don't have enough time,
please contact me. Credit will be given.

Regards to all,

Capt. Franz
 
Captain Franz,

I just saw the videos you took from that aircraft for the first time a few minutes ago. Superb! :D

I didn't know you'd done that. Those flares are amazing to be that easily visible to the human eye at that range!
 
Well, like I said earlier you guys are doing a marveleous job.

Im wondering now that some of this is surfacing just how much will be presented.

Im sure it wont get the headlines the original story did ;)
 
So much for so little

I have been trying to verify the oil flare hypothesis for several months now, and I have finally obtained the answers for many of the issues we were merely just speculating about, especially concerning the camera elevation problems, and the distance problems.
I have obtained these answers from no less than Tim Wescott who was head of FLIR Systems’ airborne software division, when the SAFIRE II was designed. Furthermore, he worked on the control algorithms concerning the gyroscopes, the lenses and the optical dither stages as well as the FOV/focus mechanism.
If anyone knows all there is to know about the SAFIRE II, this is the guy.

One thing which I have promised to say is that any answer hereby given, is the opinion of Tim Wescott, and not necessarily that of FLIR Systems Inc. Because although he worked for FLIR Systems for nearly 10 years; he now runs his own company instead.

Let’s get to the core of the issue.

As you who have followed this case can imagine, I was especially concerned with the distance issue, and the elevation problems. My correspondence with Wescott has been long and rather complicated (involving highly technical issues which took my breath away several times), but I will hereby try to give a short round up on those answers I obtained which is most interesting concerning the justification of the oil flare hypothesis.

Wescott estimates, that the oil flares in question (AKAL-J, AKAL-C and NOHOCH-A) is detectable by the SAFIRE II on the given distance, due to the size of the flares - if the weather conditions is good. He adds; that the conditions in the video appeared to be good.

Another thing which is equally interesting is that of the elevation problems. When I contacted Wescott in the first place, it was because I realized by common sense, that the camera would have to be gyrostabilized. Otherwise the images would have been vibrating.
Now, gyroscopes are stabilized with respect to the inertial frame of reference. In this case, we can assume that it is fixed to the Earth. However - and this is the interesting part – the SAFIRE II has two modes: One is a hybrid mode where the camera is stabilized against image vibration by the gyros, but more or less fixed to the aircraft attitude for lower-speed motion. That this is the mode which is active while these images is shot, is documented in the top-center of the images where you can see it says”INRPT” – this is the hybrid mode. The second mode is denoted as ”HDHLD”, and this denotes inertially stabilized position servo mode.
Let’s speak English for a while shall we? In the video, the images in question are shot with respect to the aircrafts attitude since it is in hybrid mode, but the camera is still stabilized against image vibration by the gyros. So the assumptions concerning that the camera must have been relative to the mounting point on the fuselage, is hereby documented to be correct.

Furthermore Wescott adds that it is common practice for pilots to crank a few degrees of flap so they can cruise a little slower while keeping the airplane level.

As you may have realized, I know a lot about this camera now, but I think I have covered the issues which is most essential to this case, so I’ll stop here, but you’re all welcome to ask me any questions if you want.

One thing I was concerned about was to provide evidence for the angle inclinations that you’ll find doing the math, so I thought it was about time to provide some evidence which would close these gaps. In respect of this, I worked out a theorem to have a guide towards a solution (remember that I study this case due to my interest in philosophy of science, and not because I care about ETs). My result is this:
<center>

(click to enlarge)
</center>
Some of the things which is worth to notice here, is that I have made the formulas for the distance calculations in pixels, using sine and cosine for each clock direction (latitude longer than longitude due to the curvature of our dear planet). I haven’t seen anyone else taking notice of this issue, so I thought it was about time.
Also notice that you’ll find a blue marking which covers most of the map: This is the distance to the horizon from the given altitude, and no, it’s not entirely circular, because we’re pretty close to equator at this point. The green and blue points on the travel line are points used for the theorem. They both follow a set of rules I have worked out for precise azimuth calculations, and I want go in-depth with this at this point, because it would be quite time consuming.
The theorem itself is explained in the top of the image, but the thing is, that I haven’t been able to actually prove it. I strongly suspect, that this is due to the fact, that the GPS only updates every 5 seconds, and the result is that we can’t really measure that exact bearing at any point. Hence, we’re trapped.

I have worked on several models to solve this issue, and one is more inaccurate than the other, I will, however, show one way I worked out which should – in sloppy theory - be quite accurate, but it doesn’t work either. It looks like this:
<center>

(click to enlarge)
</center>
If anyone wants to take this any further, I have made a template I will be happy to provide.

Now to something quite interesting:

When I read Smith’s report on E-Skeptic, I was thrilled. I realized that he had found a pattern of oilrigs which matched the famous formation(s) – excellent work indeed. One thing bugged me though, if this pattern was a complete match, why would he have to cut them out individually to make them fit? The same analyses on Franz’s homepage seemed to be stretched ad hoc as well, could this solution be rigged after all?

I remade the analysis to find out, and here is the result:
<center>

(click to enlarge)
</center>
That I used an image where the two famous gather/split radiation sources are overlapping is not all random. I did this because that would tell would tell us the exact direction they would have to obtaining this scenario from (see the parallax line).

Now, two things are of essence here:

1) Either the angles didn’t fit, or the image provided by Smith was not shot with 100% respect to North. Because if you look at the diagram, you’ll realize that I had to rotate the map 2.8 degrees to make it fit with that of the theorem map.

2) The pattern is not a complete match (as you can see if you look at the image in the lower-left corner).

I figure that a sound solution to the first problem is that the satellite which took this image may not have been 100% fixed on North. Or, the theorem map doesn’t correspond to this map in one way or the other.
Without having a keen knowledge of atmospheric effects, I’ll guess that the mismatch of the pattern is what you’ll expect from atmospheric disturbances at the huge distance in question (183.1 km to AKAL-C IIRC).


Ok, another thing, that both Maccabee and I noticed somewhat simultaneously and 100% independently of each other; is the fact that the camera appears to be headed towards the Cantarell oilfield in the beginning of the video - in MED FOV. This holds an essential problem, because later in the video ”the twins” is observed in MED FOV, but this time the airplane is even further away from the oilfield. How could this be?

I did the calculations on the scenario to verify or falsify that they were actually looking at the oilrigs in question (Without going into detail, I believe the oilrig NEPTUNO to be ”the twins”). This is my result:
<center>
fig4.jpg

</center>
The solution is simple; they’re not looking towards the oilfield at this point, but it certainly appeared so at first glance.


Ok, phew.. The last issue: This is one of the hardest to solve (for me at least), if you watch the video frame-by-frame, you’ll notice that the famous formation actually change dramatically. To my knowledge, nobody else had raised this issue before I did, and I don’t really know if I should congratulate myself, or bang my head on the table (no, suggestions are not welcome).
I have made some diagrams which were part of my first report, but nobody seemed to take notice of these although they present quite a problem for the oil flare hypothesis. They go like this:
<center>
image057.jpg

</center>
Now, this formation disappears behind a cloud, and when it appears again, it looks like this:
<center>
image059.jpg

</center>
Now it has become the formation which was presented by the medias worldwide, the formation which, somewhat, fits the map provided by Smith. But how could this be? Oil flares wouldn’t go about changing formation so quickly; this couldn’t even be due to parallax issues. So I speculated and speculated until I realized one thing which I think is of essence.
The FOV has changed, so could the radiation sources in the center of the Clan (C3 to C12), actually be the Stray? Well, maybe it is, or maybe it’s an entirely different group of oilrigs we see here, I don’t know, but I should mention that the azimuth change enough to justify that it is the same formation, or at least parts of, that we’re looking at in both diagrams. The pattern is a serious mismatch, but maybe this can be explained by focus issues. I don’t know, but if anyone forced me to give my opinion, I would say that it’s most likely due to FOV and focus issues.

Now I think it’s time to wrap this up, but I should mention that the ufologists I know do believe the Smith-pattern to justify the formation(s) – more or less. However, the hot issue now, is the erratic RADAR signals. I will personally not engage in any speculations concerning these readouts, because:

1) I don’t anything about RADARs.

2) The RADAR output wasn’t recorded, so all we have is statements. No hard evidence.

My current position towards the oil flare hypothesis is that it is no longer a hypothesis, but a genuine theory. However, it’s not conclusive, but then again, without getting into the philosophy of Thomas Kuhn; no theory actually is.

Now that I have rounded up most of the critical issues concerning this theory, I would like to make a few comments to the conversations that have been ongoing in this thread during my absence.

”And now... to something completely different”: One is entitled to ask why the heck the aircrew didn’t realize they were pointing the camera down towards the Cantarell oilfield? I think this is a combination of several unlucky coincidences which they had never encountered in combination before:

1) The radar operator most likely got some erratic readout, and due to this the FLIR operator was forced to use the SAFIRE in ways - and especially FOV modes - he was not used to.

2) When a radiation source is seen on those camera elevations, it is usually airborne. Oil flares of that size emits huge amounts of IR radiation, and had it not been for the excellent weather conditions, they properly wouldn’t have seen them at all. It is simply not usual to detect earthly radiation sources on that distance.

3) The camera is not mounted for precision surveys, they use the classic ”o’clock” terminology which is good enough for the aircrew members to communicate, concerning vehicles and airplanes which can be suspected for drug trafficking.


There’s still one thing that makes no sense to me: Why on Earth would the head of SEDENA deliver this material to Maussan without having such basics checked by qualified researchers first? I don’t get it.


To all,

During this case I must say that I was strongly disappointed with the way both skeptics and believers were handling the issues. Both sides were concluding this-and-that without gathering any information or doing any actual research (here I talk especially about the solutions proposed by esteemed skeptics and skeptic magazines). Skeptics very often mock believers for not providing evidence for their claims, and when I saw that skeptics were actually doing the exact same thing during this case; my emotions began to rule my logic on several occasions. To me, the scenario looked somewhat like this:”Hey, if you’re a believer and you make a claim, then you have to provide evidence for this, but because I’m a skeptic, I don’t have to provide any evidence!” I went furious due to this, because it placed the entire culture of skepticism in an awkward situation where our weapons against pseudoscience were beginning to lose their value.

My temper went out of order on this account, and I somewhat flamed some of you a number of times. I will not make individual excuses for this, I know I went out of order, but you all know who you are. I normally wouldn’t be that tempered.

I worked on a few ideas myself in the beginning which had been proposed by others, and soon found them to be somewhat plausible (military flares and ball lightning). There’s no doubt that the falsification of these ideas made me extremely careful afterwards, and were basically the main reason that I didn’t want to jump directly into any other idea again. I slowly became more and more serious about this case when I began to receive material from various sources, and as someone on these boards proposed, this thread could indeed serve as a study in critical thinking. However, evidence is crucial; because I for one don’t want to place skepticism in a situation like certain esteemed skeptics did with all their published baloney ideas; like that of equipment failure or mirror effects. They obviously concluded all this without having the slightest knowledge about the SAFIRE II, or even having the watched the videos available thoroughly. Not good.


Elicer,

We have already been over this in private correspondence, but I think I would like to make a more public statement about it. You have written Randi, and told him that Gemmell, others and I are somewhat responsible for the oil flare theory. One thing I know for sure is that I don’t deserve any credits in this regard – although very few of my falsifications proved to be correct.
But if we should round up this case, I think it goes like this:

1) Mummymonkey speculated about oilrigs in the area.
2) Gemmell found that oil was produced in the area.
3) Franz found the correct oilrigs in the area.
4) Smith found the pattern to match the famous formation (and I consider this the most important discovery of them all).

It’s in order to thank you for bringing Randi’s attention to the thread, and as you pointed out, the JREF boards proved to be worth the bandwidth during this case. The mission is clear, and the goal is obtainable. Let’s do more of this stuff in the future.


Franz,

I like the fact that you actually collected information about the Cantarell oilfield, this proved to be a good hint for Smith who knows a great deal about satellites ( I think I have spammed 15 satellites with no result). I will not give you any credits for anything since you don’t seem to like it, but I do have a question though: What’s up with all that banter about ETs?
The Drake equation, Fermi’s paradox and the continuing failure of the SETI project should be something worth adding to that equation shouldn’t it?
I do believe there’s something out there, because since the universe is infinite it’s somewhat impossible that there isn’t. However, that extra terrestrial life forms should be (secretly) present here on Earth is not most likely with the current knowledge of several issues. That’s at least my personal opinion.
Anyway, I saw you asked on the Virtuallystrange mailing list if anyone had the original uncut DVD. I can answer that for you: If there actually is an original uncut video, SEDENA has it, but the video you have obtained from my site and cut into several pieces is encoded from the exact same DVD Maussan and Maccabee has. Maussan sent me that DVD, and I encoded it for all to see with his permission. In this concern I would like point out that he knew I was a skeptic when he sent me that DVD.

Much of the information on your site is excellent. Outstanding efforts indeed, but please don’t use any of my diagrams or anything else. I do not wish to get entangled in those struggles which are ongoing in the UFO researcher societies – I hope you can understand my wish in this concern. I studied this case because it was relevant to my interest in philosophy of science. Thanks for your efforts.


Printy,

I know you do find that some of my statements have been personal attacks. The last statement you called a personal attack was more a piece of humor, because a distance of 400 km is quite absurd. It was not meant as a personal attack.
Interesting summary on your homepage by the way, if you have any questions concerning the camera which has not been answered in this post, just ask.

One thing I feel I should add though, is that I see you suggest that the SAFIRE is able to detect radiation in the visible light spectrum as well as the infrared simultaneously. This is not all correct: The reason that the Moon, lakes and several clouds are bright in the video is because the infrared radiation from the Sun - with the smaller wavelengths (near-infrared) - is able to penetrate the atmosphere. Near-infrared is very close to visible light; hence it will penetrate and reflect on several objects below and beyond the atmosphere – including the Moon. Of course, this all depends on the given camera, and I understand that IR detectors for astronomical issues, often detect in a spectrum with longer wavelengths, and therefore are used in high altitudes.


Gemmell,

You’re an interesting person, and I hope you’ll keep sticking that sensitive nose of yours into paranormal issues. I once read that skeptics were the rottweilers of science, making sure that no pseudoscientific claims entered the scene unchallenged. If this is the case, you’re a happy bloodhound sniffing around for ideas and bugging the hell out of the more aggressive and rigor watchdogs. All-in-all, many of your assumptions proved to be correct - despite the extreme absence of facts and contradictory information at the given time - and if you can do that again, you’re surely an asset to skepticism. Well done indeed.


As a final statement to all, I have made a lot of statements above which could be easy to mistake for me thinking that I’m some sort of judge, I don’t think that I am at all. For one thing, this is my first so called UFO case ever, and most likely my last. However, I thought it was about time to give my 2 cents about this entire scenario.

Wescott wrote to me that the aircrew might had found some: Unceasingly Flaming Objects. Enough said :)
 
Hi, Thomas! :D I'd wondered where you'd gone. I've read your post and will come back and add some comments some time later.

Gotta go.
 
wipeout said:
Captain Franz,

I'd be perfectly happy to credit Herrera if he had suggested the correct solution first to the Mexican airforce UFOs, but he didn't do that.

<snip>

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on Herrera's place in this, but I will end by saying that I enjoyed reading about your own investigation and the information you and others put together was a great effort. :)

-------------------------------

Hello Wipeout,

Here is a post from Dr. Julio Herrera who wrote clarifying his posture
and his comments. I think it is fair to let all of you know this.
I did the appropriate change in the oil well theory page at:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html

Ican't find Mummymonkey

Regards,

Capt. Franz
_________________________________

From: Dr. Julio Herrera -herrera@nuclecu.unam.mx-
Date: September 28, 2004 9:05 am
To: Cap. Alejandro Franz -director@alcione.org-

Dear Cap. Franz,

I saw your page on the "oil flare hypothesis". I'm thankful that
you gave me the credit on the basis of something that was
published at some web page, where indeed it looks like it's my
idea. However, I must clarify that's a misunderstanding
induced by the reporter who wrote the note. I can't tell where
the idea originated.

In any case, I recognize this hypothesis may explain many things.
What matters by the end is to find out the true about this affair.

Best regards,
Julio Herrera

P.S.: I'm writing this in English so you may quote me if you wish.
--
Dr. Julio Herrera
Instituto de Ciencias Nucleares, UNAM
A.P. 70-543, Ciudad Universitaria
Del. Coyoacán, 04511 México, D.F. MEXICO
tel.: +52-55-56224672; FAX: +52-55-56162233
e-mail: herrera@nuclecu.unam.mx
 
Re: So much for so little

Thomas said:
I know you do find that some of my statements have been personal attacks. The last statement you called a personal attack was more a piece of humor, because a distance of 400 km is quite absurd. It was not meant as a personal attack.
Interesting summary on your homepage by the way, if you have any questions concerning the camera which has not been answered in this post, just ask.

One thing I feel I should add though, is that I see you suggest that the SAFIRE is able to detect radiation in the visible light spectrum as well as the infrared simultaneously. This is not all correct: The reason that the Moon, lakes and several clouds are bright in the video is because the infrared radiation from the Sun - with the smaller wavelengths (near-infrared) - is able to penetrate the atmosphere. Near-infrared is very close to visible light; hence it will penetrate and reflect on several objects below and beyond the atmosphere – including the Moon. Of course, this all depends on the given camera, and I understand that IR detectors for astronomical issues, often detect in a spectrum with longer wavelengths, and therefore are used in high altitudes.


Re: Personal attacks
This is water under the bridge in my opinion.

Re: SAFIRE and IR
Interesting point that the IR was not recording the visible wavelengths. I will have to ammend my page, which I am currently doing anyway.

Is your webpage going to go back on line soon?
 
Thomas, good stuff. Thanks for the effort. I already read the report a couple of times and put some thought on it. I will post some comments and... questions!,... later :)
 
In an interesting side note, it appears that all the work done in this forum is nothing more than a hoax. Santiago Yturria has stated that the oil well fire explanation is nothing more than a hoax generated by a single person. I assume this exposed "hoaxer" is Captain Franz but he does not say. Congratulations everyone for creating a hoax explanation.
 
Re: So much for so little

Thomas said:
In the video, the images in question are shot with respect to the aircrafts attitude since it is in hybrid mode, but the camera is still stabilized against image vibration by the gyros. So the assumptions concerning that the camera must have been relative to the mounting point on the fuselage, is hereby documented to be correct.

Interesting to learn that.

Ok, phew.. The last issue: This is one of the hardest to solve (for me at least), if you watch the video frame-by-frame, you’ll notice that the famous formation actually change dramatically. To my knowledge, nobody else had raised this issue before I did, and I don’t really know if I should congratulate myself, or bang my head on the table (no, suggestions are not welcome).
I have made some diagrams which were part of my first report, but nobody seemed to take notice of these although they present quite a problem for the oil flare hypothesis. They go like this:

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image057.jpg

</center>

Now, this formation disappears behind a cloud, and when it appears again, it looks like this:

<center>
image059.jpg

</center>

Now it has become the formation which was presented by the medias worldwide, the formation which, somewhat, fits the map provided by Smith. But how could this be? Oil flares wouldn’t go about changing formation so quickly; this couldn’t even be due to parallax issues. So I speculated and speculated until I realized one thing which I think is of essence.

The FOV has changed, so could the radiation sources in the center of the Clan (C3 to C12), actually be the Stray? Well, maybe it is, or maybe it’s an entirely different group of oilrigs we see here, I don’t know, but I should mention that the azimuth change enough to justify that it is the same formation, or at least parts of, that we’re looking at in both diagrams. The pattern is a serious mismatch, but maybe this can be explained by focus issues. I don’t know, but if anyone forced me to give my opinion, I would say that it’s most likely due to FOV and focus issues.

I can't say that I ever paid much attention to this first group as I barely noticed them so, for me, you've brought up a new problem. :)

Thinking about this -- and also the disappearance of the most distinct flares people called "the twins" has always bothered me a little as they would surely would be the most easily spotted again after the cloud-- I realized a possible solution.

I came back to the important fact that the horizon is invisible at that range in infrared but also that clouds that are perhaps some kilometers closer to the camera will also be invisible. Just because we can't see these distant clouds, doesn't mean that they're not there and the blankness of the background -- and thus the apparent clearness of the very distant sky -- may be seriously misleading us.

These clouds which are invisible to the camera at that distance could block the line of sight to parts of the oil-field.

So I suggest that "the twins", your "c" formation and "s" formation appear and disappear because distant clouds which are invisible to the camera are revealing and hiding them.

The "c" and "s" formations might indeed be partly seperate or completely seperate oil-platforms.

I had actually briefly wondered myself how the flares like "the twins" seem to appear and disappear so quickly. Well, that's an explanation. :)

And like you say, there might be a whole other set of oil-platforms to fit to this first formation.

Er... where did those guys get the satellite pictures from again? :D

I think the final job of "fingerprinting" all the platforms responsible might be only half finished. :)

I slowly became more and more serious about this case when I began to receive material from various sources, and as someone on these boards proposed, this thread could indeed serve as a study in critical thinking.

That was me again. Actually, I was thinking about going back through the thread and making a list of what I got right and what I got wrong, simply for my own personal amusement.

However, evidence is crucial; because I for one don’t want to place skepticism in a situation like certain esteemed skeptics did with all their published baloney ideas; like that of equipment failure or mirror effects. They obviously concluded all this without having the slightest knowledge about the SAFIRE II, or even having the watched the videos available thoroughly. Not good.

Yeah, I think the same on this. Now when famous skeptics says something, I'll be watching them just as carefully as I would others.

Trust no-one. ;)

It’s in order to thank you for bringing Randi’s attention to the thread, and as you pointed out, the JREF boards proved to be worth the bandwidth during this case. The mission is clear, and the goal is obtainable. Let’s do more of this stuff in the future.

If there's one thing I'm happy about what we did here, it's getting the forum some recognition. :)

The reason that the Moon, lakes and several clouds are bright in the video is because the infrared radiation from the Sun - with the smaller wavelengths (near-infrared) - is able to penetrate the atmosphere. Near-infrared is very close to visible light; hence it will penetrate and reflect on several objects below and beyond the atmosphere – including the Moon.

Sounds like this confirms my suggestions that the light patterns under "the twins" were water reflections due to infrared just outside the human visible range reflecting just like it does in the human visible range.

I'll add a little more later again...
 

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