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[Merged]Play-by-Play: Debate between Kevin Ryan and Michael Shermer

Ryan sounds terrible. Shaky, uncertain, high pitched, crackly voice. That's slightly different than he sounds when he's preaching to the twoofer choir in his little twoofer cocoon world.

It's hard to tell whether he is under the influence of some substance or another, or whether he is just scared.

ETA: As I'm still suffering through a bunch of crappy commercials and nonsense, can someone tell me whether Ryan is ever asked about his ill-begotten lawsuit and its failure?
 
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Following the latest boring commercial break.... is it just me or did someone just apply a filter to Ryan's input in order to minimize the effect of his high pitched whiny voice? Seems that even the tinhat Thom realized how bad he sounds.

(Edit a few minutes later: Ryan still sounds whiny but not as whiny as he did prior to the latest annoying commercial break. Sounds like a filter has been added to get rid of the worst of his whiny, high pitched, shaky voice.)

(Edit a few minutes later: Never mind, if it was a filter, it isn't working very well - Ryan still sounds like a whiny little kid, and a shaky, scared little boy at that.)

*sigh* more commercials

Edit: Oh, the discussion is over. I was not expecting it to end so quickly, since the audio clip indicates that a large percentage of the clip is still to come (my guess is: several more commercials, lots more propaganda, and some call ins from friendlies). It seems that "Thom" is more interested in commercials and tinhattery than actual discussion on the merits. That's unfortunate since willfully blind lack of discussion and the failure and/or inability to think rationally or critically is what feeds the parasitic "truth" movement. The man should be ashamed of himself for being such a putz, and swallowing the tinhat nonsense.
 
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Wow. Listening to American radio is annoying - it's about half and half content and ads or promo spots for other stupid-sounding radio shows. I don't know how you guys stand it.

"Public radio" (NPR/PRI/PBS etc) isn't bad. I think the commercial radio stations may actually have less than 50% actual programming.
 
Ryan sounds terrible. Shaky, uncertain, high pitched, crackly voice. That's slightly different than he sounds when he's preaching to the twoofer choir in his little twoofer cocoon world.

It's hard to tell whether he is under the influence of some substance or another, or whether he is just scared.

ETA: As I'm still suffering through a bunch of crappy commercials and nonsense, can someone tell me whether Ryan is ever asked about his ill-begotten lawsuit and its failure?

No, that was not discussed. You can download a commercial-free version of the debate here.
 
Well, after listening to that again, I must say I am very unimpressed with Thom Hartmann. I get the distinct impression that he wants very much to pin anything on W, regardless of how true it may be... Airtime for Mr. Ryan far outweighed that for Mr. Shermer, and Hartmann was always there to open as many "possibilities" as he could.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike W without making up new ones. Follow-ups to Politics forum.

Having said that, the Truth Movement cannot "win" a debate, and here's why: We have Mr. Ryan's comments archived. Virtually everything he said is wrong. It is a trivial matter to replay the debate and prove this. Good luck doing that for Mr. Shermer, however, who made virtually no errors that I could detect.

If anyone wants to try to defend Mr. Ryan's comments, you have the floor. I suspect there will be no takers.
 
I think we've also settled the question of whether it's worth going on Thom Hartmann's show... his conduct in the telephone session afterward was hardly fair.

My feeling has always been that it's worth debating where there is a reasonable expectation that there's an audience that has not made up its mind. I'm not going to appear on a "Truther" radio show (not that I'm going to be invited again). But Hartmann? In a Hartbeatt.
 
Ryan's Dope

Just for the exercise, I compiled a list of all the conspiracy theory-related claims that Kevin Ryan made (not all wrong of course). I added those made by Hartmann as well. Line breaks indicate where either Shermer was allowed to talk or Hartmann asked a question of Ryan.

Looking over this I'm flabbergasted at the sheer amount of woo the two were able to put out in what amounts to 35 minutes of airtime. One particularly annoying thing that is noticeable in retrospect is that on several occasions after Ryan had spat out ten talking points, Hartmann would jump in, but before cutting to Shermer he'd add another three or four more to the mix, so that Shermer could not even respond to Ryan's claims before answering Hartmann's.

This shows again what we're up against in a debate format. I don't think anybody could substantively debunk 20% of this crap in the time that Shermer had available to him. I did not time it, but I'm reasonably sure that Ryan got far more airtime than Shermer, despite which he frequently interrupted especially near the end, while Shermer did not interrupt once.

Here are the points Ryan raised:

Two hypotheses.
Government story is a conspiracy hypothesis
Either LIHOP or MIHOP=government involvment

Truth is simple but not obvious
Al Qaeda a product of the CIA
Al Qaeda connections to Saudis and ISI
Hijackers have ISI connections
KSM the mastermind
KSM worked for ISI
Sayeed Sheihk 9-11 paymaster and ISI Agent
Musharraf says in book that Sayeed Sheihk an MI6 agent
Sayeed Sheihk reportedly wired $100,000 to Atta just before 9-11 attacks at direction of ISI chief Ahmed.

Hartmann:

What’s wrong with 9-11 commission
WTC-7 controlled demolition
Where are pentagon videos
Smuggled away evidence
Rudy Giuliani suspended rescue operation after gold recovered

Ryan:
9-11 Commission left a lot of information out of report
Commission had conflicts of interest
Uncritically accepted accounts from government sources
Zelikow a Bush insider
No mention of WTC 7
WTC 7 collapsed despite not being hit by a plane
Bush’s relatives in charge of security company for the WTC, United and Dulles
Wirt Walker Bush’s cousin
Lot of FBI agents who claim to have known the dates (sic) and the targets well in advance.
US military allowed Osama bin Laden to escape
Bush and Bin Laden families are business partners

Hartmann:

Bush Sr. having breakfast with Osama’s brother on morning of 9-11 (claims in NY Times)

Ryan:

Government agencies involved hypothesis has better evidence

Hartmann:

What about rogue agents ala E. Howard Hunt

Ryan:

Everybody in chain of command mysteriously absent or incompetent that day
Bush reading My Pet Goat
Rumsfeld didn’t “enter chain of command until events were over”
JCOS Henry Shelton was flying to London, replacement was in a meeting
Montague Winfield MCC (?) asked his deputy to take over for “just the two hours”
Captain Lydeck (sp?) who replaced him turned out to be incompetent
NORAD’s General Eberhart was driving around on Cheyenne Mountain

Not thousands of operatives needed
Let’s not speculate on number needed
There are top down demolitions

Building 7 not hit by a plane
Collapsed in 6.5 seconds
Freefall speed
Into its own footprint
Six years later still waiting for an official explanation
2002 FEMA “low probability” explanation
No building has ever collapsed from fire before or after 9-11
No building exhibiting all the features of demolition has ever not been a demolition
Probability says that the only three buildings collapsing from a fire on the same day is infinitesimal
9-11 Commission didn’t mention WTC 7

Whoever controls the world’s oil controls the world
Not just another “false-flag” event like the Gulf of Tonkin
Psychological operation
Needed people in front of the TV (when buildings collapsed)
Doesn’t matter where the buildings are hit; they’re rigged for demolition
More psychological effect if you wait until everybody’s in front of the TV
Psychological effect drives 9-11 Wars
Effective standdown of air defenses
Hijackers “allowed” to get lucky at every single turn
Government more able to plant the explosives

Hartmann:

What about the standdown
What about ignoring the warnings

Ryan:
Antenna on North Tower drops first
Could only happen if all the core failed first
South Tower large upper section starts to tilt over
Kinks all along top of South Tower, so it fails in multiple spots even away from the fire
Even if it collapses at point of impact if the buildings are rigged for demolition what does it matter?

60 tons of explosives not required
Landmark hotel brought down with 450 pounds of explosives
Landmark Hotel 30 stories tall
Equates to 1300 pounds of explosives for WTC (each tower presumably)
30 trips (10 people three trips)

Sudden onset of collapse
Symmetrical and vertical (!) fall
Near freefall speed
These can’t happen in a fire-induced collapse
Government has failed to prove the fire-induced collapse
Government has proved it wrong through contradiction
Only thing left is demolition hypothesis which government has not looked at

Government has no photos of south side of WTC 7
WTC 7 collapses more perfectly that a perfect demolition
WTC 7 comes straight down
WTC 7 comes uniformly down
Doesn’t lean towards any damage

Airspace over Washington restricted.
Airspace most heavily defended on planet
Airspace named P56B
3-mile restricted space over White House Capitol and Pentagon
Mineta testimony
Clear that “we” had notice that the Pentagon was going to be struck

Hartmann:
Why is Osama not on the FBI’s Most Wanted List
Why has he never been charged with the 9-11 attacks
Can argue that Afghanistan war over pipeline

Ryan
Could have been a small group
Military operation, compartmentalized
He’s not an expert (no fooling)
Lot of whistleblowers related to 9-11
FBI agents trying to contact John Ashcroft for six weeks before 9-11 to give him exact details and he wouldn’t return their calls
Sibel Edmonds says they haven’t even “mentioned” anybody connected to 9-11 at a mid or higher level
Patty Casazza says whistleblowers told her the government knew the day, the type of attack and the targets.
WTC 7 a lot of people don’t know about

Hartmann:

What about the put options
Whistleblowers,
Over 50 specific warnings to the Bush adminstration
Worked out well for Bush Administration, they got their wars
Halliburton Stock four times what it was
Dick Cheney has made millions and millions of dollars
The Bush family and Bechtel has made billions of dollars

Ryan:

Conspiracy theory term is derogatory
Much easier for the government to have accomplished 9-11 than 19 “fellas”

Evidence on hand points to need to accept the “alternative hypothesis”
 

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