Mel Gibson 's racist rant

Let's keep politics out of it.
If you want I could come up with a list of Celebs with Left Wing Political views who are not exactly saints....Charlie Sheen comes to mind.

Hhmmm . . . I didn't realize that I had brought politics into it. Much could be said about Gibson's politic's but I didn't. So to be clear, anyone could have said, "All Mel needs is love" and it would have been just as absurd.
 
That's the thing with beating people based on personal morality, other people's morals will differ from yours.

It's why we have laws. No-one gets quite what they want, but (in theory) you're protected from people who think a blunt instrument is an argument winner.


Yes and no. I agree that the rule of law is profoundly important, and that vigilante action is ultimately damaging to us all. But there is another element, which is arguably missing from your analysis.

As a society we decide which rights are to be protected, and we make laws which reflect the consensus we can agree on. In the best case that is a peaceful process: those who are excluded make their case and reasonable people listen to that case and they adopt laws which extend the rights to minority groups where those are missing.

There are times when this process does not work well: it does not work when an artificial difference is manufactured or perceived in order to justify different treatment of some group. This is easily seen in the case of women's suffrage: or slavery: or the disenfranchisement of the poor. There are many examples.

In those cases the "morality" of the society was fine: the exclusion rested on a wriggle which allowed those with power to distance themselves from those without. It would be nice to think that this changes when the "outgroup" organises and makes a case which is persuasive in terms of the avowed principles of the society: and that is indeed a necessary condition. But as I look at the history of such movements it is not sufficient. Too many people are short on empathy: short on principles: long on laziness and personal comfort and advantage.

That kind of law is changed partly on the basis of some conception of justice but it is generally necessary to accompany that with some kind of threat: all that does is change the cost/benefit analysis somewhat: but that is required. It can be done by "passive resistance" as epitomied by Ghandi: that worked by makiing the mismatch between avowed values and actual practice uncomfortably apparent: and most folk are decent and will grasp that mismatch if it is forced on their attention. Thus the need for a case to be made. Very admirable if you can do that without violence: but it is only successful if other things conspire with it: wider social change, including a change in the economic/power benefit of retaining the status quo:I am not sure that ghandi's movement could have worked at another period: the effects of the war on the british attitudes to the "other" was important, amongst other things

For other groups at other times there is always the case: and the enforcement of the case. Each movement which seeks to participate in a culture which excludes them includes a majority which wishes to do so by peaceful means: and a minority which gets frustrated with the slow or non-existent pace of change. That minority will take direct action of one kind or another. And if the peaceful process is not producing a response then more will decided that direct action is necessary. The existent power will resist that and call it terrorism or criminality: and they will be right to call it that because that is what it is. But it is also effective, if it is sustained, because the cost of retaining the power gets higher. The reporting of the violence also raises the profile of the grievance and it forces more of the decent people to awareness and to thought.

Many would argue that this is not applicable to the position of women: and it is certainly true that some progress has been made through peaceful means. But it is also true that the law is not effective in protecting a great many women: and that violence against women is not quite seen in the same way as violence againt men. We can argue about the extent that is true, and to what extent a direct action response is justified in our present circumstances. One problem in answering that question is that in some senses women do not self-identify as a group - though that has changed to some exent it remains the case: one tension within the feminist movement is the way you reconcile the wish to be seen as fully human: and the necessity to develop a separate group identity in order to achieve that. That tension exists in other movements too, and it is a bit of a double bind which is difficult to negotiate. But one of the sad truths appears to be that the characterisation of women as "other" rests in part on their general reluctance to be violent. It is almost funny: the proof you are serious is willingness to fight when it comes to it: and the requirement to fight a bigger and stronger enemy, and to accept martyrdom, is what passes for a membership card to the human race: without it the theory that you are content is sustainable. And it is that attitude which forces the minorities to take direct action: then they cut up rough when the lesson is learned.

But the point is that if the law does not effectively protect the citizen by reason of membership of a group seen as "other" then one must make it worthwhile for those with power to re-think that stance. And one must also protect oneself, because for so long as you do not the majority will conclude that you are ok with how things are: born to be slaves or mothers or whatever: no need to think much about it if there is no evidence that the theory of difference is not correct. A few fighting back can be portrayed as aberrant, of course: but if many do then it is direct challenge to that theory and if other factors combine to support it change may well come.

Violence focusses the mind of the individual and the society. That is not desirable but it happens to be a fact. It is not inescapable: it is not the only way to achieve change: but it is a necessity when the culture will not recognise legitimate grievances because "power comes from the barrel of a gun". Like it or not many movements from the chartists to the civil rights movement show that this is true: the peaceful protest did not work by itself no matter how we like to re-write history after the event.

In the case Roadtoad described the action was not society wide: but the bloke had a theory: his theory was that he could beat up his partner with complete impunity. He has grounds for that belief: we as a society are very poor at protecting women in the context of the family so he could reasonably conclude he would get away with it. And we have a strong societal pressure against vigilante action, as you say. So his theory was she would not protect herself directly either. Such men do not assault big strong men in bars because they "see red" when provoked: funnily enough most of them manage to control themselves in those circumstances. So it is not a question of "losing it": it is a theory about the limits and entitlements of different relationships. In this case the lady demonstrated that the theory was wrong, or at least not as universally applicable as he liked to think. That is what is meant by "attitude adjustment", or, as I prefer to see it, education. He tested a hypothesis which holds true in many cases, and found it failed. But the real problem is that he had that hypothesis in the first place. And he did no make it up out of his own head: it is supported by the society we live in. And while that remains true it is not enough to characterise it as "vigilante-ism", for that is to individualise a societal problem.


I'm not even going to get in to how people hoot and cheer jilted wives gluing a penis or attacking with a knife, but if a guy goes after his cheating wife he should be locked up.

I hope that what I have said above is enough to demonstrate a difference between the two cases, though I expect it is not. It is a very common phenomenon to equate/conflate those things and to pretend that there is equality when there is not: it is perfectly possible to argue that the difference I am proposing does not exist; or is not relevant, of course. But you have to do it. It is not a given, as this part of your post suggests. Once again it is individualising a problem which is bigger than the individual. In the same way those suffragettes who broke the law were treated as common criminals by the state: and lauded as heroes by those who recognised the injustice of the position they were in. But do you really think those who broke windows for the right to vote were the same as those who broke windows for the pleasure of seeing glass break or for robbery? I dont. The actions have a context.
 
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3idce355ee2b302dc4e314dccf51febe6f

" The Hollywood Reporter has learned that after the disturbing Mel Gibson audio tapes became public earlier this month, Oksana Grigorieva wrote Gibson a text explaining why she'd surreptitiously recorded their conversations.

According to a source familiar with the case, Grigorieva writes in the text that the reason she recorded him was because "you broke your agreement with me."

The source says that there are additional emails that will likely be used by Gibson's attorneys to prove that Grigorieva attempted to use the audio tapes to extort money from Gibson. The source adds that Grigorieva was also upset about the breakup and was looking to reconcile.

The Los Angeles County sheriff's department today confirmed they are investigating Grigorieva."
 
I think if it is an extortion attempt, that is a terrible thing. However, it does not mitigate the terrible things I'm hearing Gibson say in the tapes. If it is indeed Gibson speaking.
 
That's horrible but, in your former daughter in law's defense, it is probably blaming the wrong person to say that she "allowed it". Her boyfriend was the one abusing them and probably abusing her as well (or WOULD have abused her, had she tried to stop it.) She just had no choice. It probably hurt her immensely to see what he was doing to her children but she was powerless.

She may have felt she had no choice, or that she was powerless, but that's not actually true.
 
I think if it is an extortion attempt, that is a terrible thing. However, it does not mitigate the terrible things I'm hearing Gibson say in the tapes. If it is indeed Gibson speaking.

That is why I did not want to jump on the Oksana bandwagon early on.
Both are pathetic excuses for Human Beings, frankly, and I agree that the kid is to be pitied with two parents like that.
 
With the whole Breitbart/Sherrod uproar I suppose it's only fair that Mel have his side heard. The court of public opinion is firmly against him, and I don't know that he will ever change that, and because of the way that the tapes were leaked, just showing that they were inadmissible isn't going to help him one whit in the public's eyes.

But if there were somehow some egregious editing of the tapes by Team Oksana that made him come out to be an abuser (instead of "merely" a racist jerk), then we've all been taken advantage of. Doubtful, but possible.
 
Look, either you're an internet tough guy (best case scenario), or you're advocating vicious (possibly fatal) vigilante style justice. Neither is very good.

We may all harbor dark fantasies about Charles Bronso-esque revenge sprees, but when you start bragging about them and tossing high fives, reevaluate, bud. Reevaluate.

Abusers are experts at manipulating the system in order to not get jail time. Ever met one? They know more about the law than half the lawyers out there, and they are great at instilling fear into people. No abuser picks on someone 6 inches taller and pure muscle.

Your line of logic would be great in a Utopian society , or even a society in which the pieces of crap were honest about being pieces of crap. But that is not the world we live in. We live in a world where it is actually possible to convince a woman you just kicked the **** out of that if she informs the authorities somehow things will get worse.

People hate to admit it , but sometimes violence is the answer. I find us liberals are the absolute worst for this, sometimes, seldomly , but sometimes there is nothing to do but grab a lead pipe.

Sure it makes you sound a lot better to say " i deplore violence" while i am saying knock out a few teeth.You come off as the cool headed and thinking, and i seem like a thug. But off the internet, in the real world this type of logic causes people to be victims. It gives people no recourse when someone has found ways to manipulate them and the system, and it takes the power away from the people who need it and gives it to the people who should in no way shape or form have it.

The justice system is just as flawed as vigilante justice, but simply in the opposite direction. This may be a good thing, a great thing , when it comes to thieves or vandals. ( i am sure people would beat down the kid tagging their store if they could get away with it. ). But when it comes to people who get a kick out of causing physical harm to others and manipulating the justice system, it is a crying shame.

Abusers are doing nothing more than starting a physical altercation, but doing the stupid thing and staying with the person they are in the altercation with. If someone sees this and decides to take advantage of the fact that they choose to sleep beside them, i say its no different than kicking someone in the stones during a fight. Not something i would encourage in every case, but well applied in the correct situation i would gladly cheer.

You cannot make a blanket statement that vigilante justice is a bad thing, the same way you cannot make a blanket statement that the current justice system is a good thing. They both have their pro's and con's and the real trick lies in finding when each is appropriate. It may be a 90% 10% split, but there is need for both in an imperfect world.
 
He needs help of the professional psychiatric variety.

You know Mel really needs some help. A regular psychiatrist couldn't even help him. He needs to go to like Vienna or something. You know what I mean? He needs to get involved at the University level. Like where Freud studied and have all those people looking at him and checking up on him. That's the kind of help Mel needs. Not the once a week for eighty bucks. No. He needs a team. A team of psychiatrists working round the clock thinking about him, having conferences, observing him, like the way they did with the Elephant Man. That's what I'm talking about because that's the only way Mel is going to get better.
 
You know Mel really needs some help. A regular psychiatrist couldn't even help him. He needs to go to like Vienna or something. You know what I mean? He needs to get involved at the University level. Like where Freud studied and have all those people looking at him and checking up on him. That's the kind of help Mel needs. Not the once a week for eighty bucks. No. He needs a team. A team of psychiatrists working round the clock thinking about him, having conferences, observing him, like the way they did with the Elephant Man. That's what I'm talking about because that's the only way Mel is going to get better.

Psychopathy is not curable.
 
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3idce355ee2b302dc4e314dccf51febe6f

" ...
According to a source familiar with the case, Grigorieva writes in the text that the reason she recorded him was because "you broke your agreement with me."

The source says that there are additional emails that will likely be used by Gibson's attorneys to prove that Grigorieva attempted to use the audio tapes to extort money from Gibson. The source adds that Grigorieva was also upset about the breakup and was looking to reconcile.

The Los Angeles County sheriff's department today confirmed they are investigating Grigorieva."

Unless we can read the entire "agreement" we don't know which part of it she was referring to, for all we know it had nothing to do with money and everything to do with the custody agreement.

Women who are battered regularly go back to the men who beat them, back again and again, nothing unusual about that. Been there done that.

About time the police woke up and started investigating everything about this.
 
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