Matt Crowley shoots down Bigfoot dermal ridges?

Lu's anti-Wallace conspiracy drivel is driving me insane.

I read all of that and I am still perplexed. Are you saying Wallace faked some of the tracks, but not all...in the same area, around the same time? Yeah, okay.

You said Wallace never admitted to faking the tracks before he died? Are you now saying he didn't do any of it? Where did the pictures of him holding the fake feet come from? How about the film of his wife in a monkey suit?

We then move on to the fact that Meldrum et al know that some of the tracks are faked, but can obviously distinguish the real ones from the faked...because, they...uh...know what a real squatch print looks like. How do they know, Lu, what a real squatch print looks like?

Never mind that your post is itself riddled with inaccuracies. Wallace never complained the tracks were causing him to lose business...he was losing money because thieves were ripping off his site. His family stated he made the tracks to scare off the thieves.

But wait...you got all of that from the BFRO site?

Well, aren't they quite the source of accurate information...
 
Diogenes said:
Check out the conditions..

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/reward.htm


I agree, they are in no danger of losing their 100 thou...


Yeah, that award is a publicity stunt. Nothing more.

A formal document setting out the requirements to qualify for the award will take time to prepare…

Catch that little qualifier? The conditions haven’t officially been set forth yet, according to this. So technically if you complete all the “requirements”, they could simply add more.

Traverse a variety of terrains, including climbing, descending and crossing steep slopes covered with underbrush

What is this…sasquatch boot camp? So, basically you have to physically do what they think a Bigfoot did? You think that’s really how these tracks were made?

Sink into firm ground to far greater depth than human footprints specifically as much as an inch deep in hard sand where human prints barely penetrate at all;

Can you physically pound the fake foot in, or do you have to wear it?

The applicant will also have to be able to make these tracks under the following conditions, although not all in combination: 1) In the dark, hundreds in a single night; 2) In places where it is impossible to bring any vehicle or other machine or any equipment except what humans or animals could carry; 3) Without doing anything to attract the notice of people a few
hundred yards away.

Again, why do they assume the tracks were made in these conditions? How do they know any tracks were made at night? What is up with number three? How could this be tested accurately, without the people being aware of the test?
 
Correa Neto said:
Here´s another shot in the feet (pun intended).

At the other thread, LAL wrote that bigfeet always roamed far from roads. Or at places with no roads at all. Here´s "over a thousand" footprints at or nearby a road.

Where are the roadkills?

I noted I've read there are 74 reports of them crossing roads. I even described a close encounter where the animal checked out the car afterward, apparently unconcerned after the car came to a screeching halt. I've never said what you claimed I said above. There's little traffic at night on mountain roads and most drivers are very wary. Hitting a large animal tends to do quite a bit of damage to the vehicle, and that could be serious in a remote area where there may be little chance of getting help (cell phones don't work well in the mountains). Deer are abundant in areas where I've lived for the last three decades or so, but I only recall two road killed deer, one on a highway and one on an interstate, and a report of one other on the same highway. I never saw a dead bear, but there may be a hundred bear for every Sasquatch. I never saw a dead Cougar, either. Road killed opposums were common, but some people actually aim at them. They're slow.
 
Thurkon said:
Lu's anti-Wallace conspiracy drivel is driving me insane.

Short trip, wasn't it?

The media picked up the story and ran with it, as though Wallace's fake feet explains everything. That only works on people who really know nothing about this.
I read all of that and I am still perplexed. Are you saying Wallace faked some of the tracks, but not all...in the same area, around the same time? Yeah, okay.
To my knowlege he faked nothing around the area where the Crew tracks were found. It was his crew, but he was usually off getting new contracts. That was his job. He may have faked a few for the tourists around his shop, but that's about all.
You said Wallace never admitted to faking the tracks before he died? Are you now saying he didn't do any of it? Where did the pictures of him holding the fake feet come from?
The one on this thread? That's not him.
How about the film of his wife in a monkey suit?
She was afraid she'd be shot. He either posed for shots or took the photos or both. They were for souveniers. To my knowlege, he didn't try to pass them off to researchers as the real thing.

http://www.bigfootresearch.org/Sasquatch_Ray Wallace1.jpg
We then move on to the fact that Meldrum et al know that some of the tracks are faked, but can obviously distinguish the real ones from the faked...because, they...uh...know what a real squatch print looks like. How do they know, Lu, what a real squatch print looks like?
Meldrum has examined tracks in situ on five occassions. Living feet have characteristics that simply can't be duplicated with fake feet, especially carved wooden ones. Krantz carved a set for experimentation. So did Meldrum. Meldrum is an expert in primate locomotion and Krantz was an anthropologist.
Never mind that your post is itself riddled with inaccuracies. Wallace never complained the tracks were causing him to lose business...he was losing money because thieves were ripping off his site. His family stated he made the tracks to scare off the thieves.

Source? He was losing money because constuction workers were quitting, according to my sources.

This reminds me of the claim that miners donned bear skins to scare off claim jumpers in a 1924 news clipping at Spirit Lake Lodge when it was the miners who came terrified into Kelso after the Ape Canyon incident.
But wait...you got all of that from the BFRO site?

No. Most of it comes from John Green who was on to Wallace as early as 1965.
Well, aren't they quite the source of accurate information...

Yes, they usually are. If you'll notice almost all the articles on the site come from somewhere else. Of course, to one who refuses to believe there could be such animals the site would have to appear not credible, even though it is.
 
LTC8K6 said:
There must be more than one set of Wallace feet. The one I keep seeing compared on bigfoot sites looks nothing like the set of feet Dale Wallace is holding.

Wallace_comparisons.jpg

Great pic. How did you do that?
It needs the caption, though:

"Real tracks, like the one on the left, can only be made by a living fleshy foot. When it presses down into the medium, it makes a sequential print. What that means is is that the foot has dozens of bones, tendons and ligaments that flow in a segmented fashion. This fluid motion creates what is called compression lines in the inner perimeter of the track.

Fake tracks, like the one on the right, are identified by what is called impact ridges that appear on the outer perimeter of the track. What creates this is the simultaneous pushing out from the pressing down of a solid, non-flexible structure like wood or fake plaster cast.

Children can be taught to know the difference very easily."

http://www.sasquatchresearch.com/ichnology.html

There were three sets of fake feet as I recall. Ray Pickens had a set he made of a "family", or so I've read. I've also read Ray Wallace had Ray Pickens carve the feet for Wallace. Pickens claimed he faked tracks around Colville, Washington in 1969. Wallace was supposed to have faked the Crew tracks in 1958.

Hm.
 
tube said:
Shortly after Ray Wallace died Loren Coleman's Yahoo message board erupted in a prolonged debate between John Green and Scott Herriott. If you want to pursue the esoterica of the whole Ray "Superfoot" Wallace thing you might want to check it out.

I don't know if you have to sign up and become a member in order to veiw the archives of Loren's group or not. Let me post this link and hopefully it will work.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bigfoot/message/10338

It didn't. I'm awaiting an e-mail to see if I'm accepted for membership. Can you copy and paste some of it?
 
LTC8K6 said:
If you plant them in non-remote areas you are more likely to get caught, aren't you?

There are numerous examples of hoaxers going to enormous lengths for a hoax.

I just saw a show about a fake engraved stone. The hoaxers went to the trouble of finding iron-age soot so that when the patina was tested it would date correctly. They even added gold to it. The Jehoash Inscription.

It fooled some of the best, for a while. Note the similar refrain about no one knowing how to do it......


Antiquities forgery is a profitable business. The "James ossuary" held up for awhile too.

Where's the profit in faking footprints, especially in areas where they might never be found? Have any of the trackways found in remote areas ever been shown to have been hoaxed?
 
LAL said:
Antiquities forgery is a profitable business. The "James ossuary" held up for awhile too.

Actually it didn't, once scientists with no vested interest in it's authenticity studied it ..

Where's the profit in faking footprints, especially in areas where they might never be found? Have any of the trackways found in remote areas ever been shown to have been hoaxed?
Nice try.. The real question is " Has anyone produced a specimen that could have made the tracks ? "

You keep forgetting.. No one can can prove something doesn't exist.. It doesn't work that way.
 
LAL said:
It didn't. I'm awaiting an e-mail to see if I'm accepted for membership. Can you copy and paste some of it?

I would double check Loren's usage restrictions before doing that kind of cross posting. Herroitt and Green went at it for pages and pages, and I'm not comfortable posting huge amounts of text. I don't even know how to copy and paste text like that yet, and I'm 42 years old! I'm learning though, gimme time...

I think John Green's observation about the Wallace foot with the longitudinal crack at the heal is correct. The photograph is not the best, but I think he is correct in that the three smallest toes seem to have no clefts between them. Green suggests that Wallace may have been fabricating some sort of test impressioning tool and deliberately bunched the toes together, in the manner of a Grover Krantz test. Krantz and Meldrum included deliberate flaws in their wooden test feet so as not to leave misleading tracks. This is discussed in Krantz' book Big Footprints.

Here again, I believe it is useful to consider the possibility of wear on the plantar surface. Wallace was not a researcher like Krantz or Meldrum. It makes no sense to me why he, of all people, would include a deliberate flaw in his fake foot. Notice how worn the plantar surface of this "crack heel" impressioning tool is. Is it possible the surface became worn bounding down roads? Is it possible that Wallace DID include clefts between the last three toes but that they are worn down as a result of supination on the part of the wearer?

How did the crack in the heel get there? Clearly it is possible for wood to crack on it's own, but normally this occurs when green wood is drying out. Wallace surely started out with commercial lumber which would have already dried out. To me the crack is most likely the result of a strong application of force. Hardwood.org (fnarr fnarr) lists Alder as "the most abundant commercial hardwood" of the Pacific Northwest. Why would Wallace choose a hardwood if it were not going to be undergoing significant stress of some kind? If Wallace were going to fabricate a STATIC impressioning tool, why go to the trouble and expense of working a hardwood when a cheaper and easier to work softwood would do?

Again, I doubt this is ever going to be resolved. I wish Rick Noll, or any one, could have gotten photographs of the other two Cartesian axes of these fake feet.
 
tube said:
I would double check Loren's usage restrictions before doing that kind of cross posting. Herroitt and Green went at it for pages and pages, and I'm not comfortable posting huge amounts of text. I don't even know how to copy and paste text like that yet, and I'm 42 years old! I'm learning though, gimme time...

Heck, I don't know how to post animations and I'm.......well, older than you are.

Just click and drag the cursor, right click, click "Copy" then "Paste" on a PM to me. I'll be happy to tell you if you got it right. :D You could leave out Scott's replies for brevity.

I'm still waiting to be accepted. I hope they don't think I'm Erik Beckjord sneaking in under an AOL SN (a cyber friend had trouble joining BFF because of that).

Seems I've read Wallace faked some prints for tourists leading to a pond or something. If he did this enough, that could account for wear. One version has it that he got Ray Pickens to carve the feet for him. I don't think that's very likely, especially given the time frame, but if Pickens just sent him the sets of feet he carved that could account for the wear.

I'm not sure how you can see wear on them. Is this from photos or have you seen the actual fake feet? Could the kind of rough surface I seem to see be from weathering?
 
Diogenes said:
Nice try.. The real question is " Has anyone produced a specimen that could have made the tracks ? "

You keep forgetting.. No one can can prove something doesn't exist.. It doesn't work that way.

There you go assuming again. How can I forget that when people throw it at me instead of trying to produce evidence, not speculation, of specific hoaxes, misidentification and outright hallucination?

Has anyone produced sets of anatomically correct fake feet (with or without stilts) or a track-making machine that could have made the tracks?

There've been thousands found over decades and thousands of miles apart. We're not talking about one or two prints here.
 
Has anyone produced sets of anatomically correct fake feet (with or without stilts) or a track-making machine that could have made the tracks?

Here we see typical Lu.

There is no evidence of any anatomically correct bigfoot footprints, no need for stilts, no need for a track making machine.

Just more intentional obtuseness and straw men about how tracks might be faked.

No one has produced a single anatomically correct bigfoot track.

No one.

The statement is absolutely ridiculous.

Even if bigfoot is real, no one has clue one about what his foot is really like, or what track it might make.

The very idea of an anatomically correct bigfoot track, or an anatomically correct fake bigfoot foot, is something only a blind believer would come up with.
 
LAL said:


I'm not sure how you can see wear on them. Is this from photos or have you seen the actual fake feet? Could the kind of rough surface I seem to see be from weathering?

I have only seen photographs. Do you not see an extremely rough plantar surface on these fake feet?
 
I suppose it's possible that Lu is unaware of all of the Bigfoot books, movies, t-shirts, videos, expedition spaces, and other crap that has been for sale all this time.

I suppose it's even possible that Lu doesn't realize that bigfoot "evidence" bolsters the sales of these items.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Here we see typical Lu.

There is no evidence of any anatomically correct bigfoot footprints, no need for stilts, no need for a track making machine.

Just more intentional obtuseness and straw men about how tracks might be faked.


Did you ever come up with a solution for how tracks could be produced in snow without stilts or any sign of human activity? Someone (forgot who) who investigated tracks said if they weren't real they would have to have been made by a machine, but there were no splatter marks. That wasn't my argument.

I don't think you know enough about the trackways to have an opinion, frankly.

No one has produced a single anatomically correct bigfoot track.


IOW, you haven't read up on this and don't have a clue what I'm talking about. If you had you might not have shot yourself in the foot on Chilcutt.

How about trying a new insult? "Obtuse" wore thin some weeks ago. "Obtuse" was an ultimate insult when I was in school. Strange to see it's around again. It was usually used in a last ditch attempt to humiliate someone who wouldn't accept an erroneous argument or give in to attempts to control.


Read Krantz. Or Murphy.

The statement is absolutely ridiculous.


You seem to dismiss anything you can't understand as "ridiculous". Is that intentional obtuseness? Or unintentional obtuseness?

Even if bigfoot is real, no one has clue one about what his foot is really like, or what track it might make.

The very idea of an anatomically correct bigfoot track, or an anatomically correct fake bigfoot foot, is something only a blind believer would come up with.

I really don't know why I bother to respond to your posts.

There are anatomical details in the prints that are correct for a very heavy creature in a mountainous environment. Much can be inferred from the tracks and has been. I've pointed you to sources and suggested you try to get them through the library. That's about all I can do. I'm not sending you my books.
 
LAL said:
I noted I've read there are 74 reports of them crossing roads. I even described a close encounter where the animal checked out the car afterward, apparently unconcerned after the car came to a screeching halt. I've never said what you claimed I said above.

You wrote

"There were 590 tracks found by the roadway on Blue Creek Mountain and not all of the same individual. Some had been obliterated by traffic on the road, so there may have been over a thousand."

Do you deny that?

And regarding the sightings, you know, people drive at night, get tired, there´s pareidolia, etc. Unreliable. If you take sighting reports of bigfeet as reliable evidence, then you should also take UFO sighting reports as reliable evidence.

By now, you should have realised, after Tube´s take on alleged bigfeet footprint casts that the dermal ridge argument is at least questionable, since they can be mere artifacts. Note that he does not deny the possibility of existence of bigfoot. And yet, points that the dermal ridge argument should not be seen, as you claim, unquestionable evidence.

Actually I think most of us do not deny the possibility of bigfoot being a real animal. We just consider it to be, based on the quality of the avaliable evidence, highly unlikely.

LAL said:
There's little traffic at night on mountain roads and most drivers are very wary. Hitting a large animal tends to do quite a bit of damage to the vehicle, and that could be serious in a remote area where there may be little chance of getting help (cell phones don't work well in the mountains). Deer are abundant in areas where I've lived for the last three decades or so, but I only recall two road killed deer, one on a highway and one on an interstate, and a report of one other on the same highway. I never saw a dead bear, but there may be a hundred bear for every Sasquatch. I never saw a dead Cougar, either. Road killed opposums were common, but some people actually aim at them. They're slow.

LAL, we´ve been through this before, and you have not managed to provide any reasonable explanation for the lack of solid evidence. Again, you are creating biased opinions that are just plain wrong.

Large animals are hit by cars, regardless of how hard drivers and animals try to avoid themselves. And it happens at all types of roads.

The "no bear carcass" argument has been torn to shreds in the other thread. Remember that a ranger posted saying he and his (OK, I´m assuming the ranger is a "he") fellows have found lots of them?

I´ll write it clearly: scavenging will not get rid of all remains. I worked at the Amazon forest, where decomposition and scavenging are much more intense than in North America temperate forests (hot humid weather, soils with highly acidic upper layer, all sorts of scavenging critters, from bugs to mammals) and you do find smelly rotten carcasses, from armadillos to tapirs. Including those of predated animals. Depending on the area, scavenging birds will tell you where to look for the remains. Same is valid for Africa (savannahs and jungles), as the many persons I know that worked there have told me. Oh, gorillas included, before you write anything. If you want to ignore this, OK, its your problem. But someone else will point this out again to you. And you will pass as someone with little experience in forest areas, what you claim not to be.

Rare animals also become roadkills. Another poster also pointed this out - with examples. Of course, immaginary creatures don´t become roadkills or leave carcasses.
 
tube said:
I have only seen photographs. Do you not see an extremely rough plantar surface on these fake feet?

Yes, but the tracks were on display. Would that have been indoors or outdoors? Could the apparent roughness have been caused by weathering rather than wear? Just curious.

"The story was hot, and it was everywhere -- on TV, newspapers, and radios around the world -- in December 2002. It proclaimed that "the truth can finally be told about Big Foot". Virtually every major newspaper and broadcaster in the United States fell for it. A family had "finally come forward to reveal the truth". They claimed their deceased father had started the whole legend. It was all him. He was Bigfoot. They said they knew it, and they had the fake tracks to prove it.

The Wallace family proudly exhibited some wooden track stompers to the press. They claimed these were used by their father, Ray Wallace, to create the legend of Bigfoot in the late 1950's. It was only a harmless prank, they explained, but it got out of hand and took on a life of its own, with the help of Ray.

Different members of the Wallace family told different versions of the story. Some claimed Ray only started the legend, then other people apparently faked other tracks in other areas. Various other Wallace family members claimed that Ray made all the tracks himself, anywhere and everywhere they appeared.

The media bought all of it. There was nothing the media wasn't going to believe.

Some Wallaces claimed Ray was behind the Patterson footage as well. Ray's widow said it wasn't her in that costume, and she didn't know anything about it. The rest of the Wallaces still wanted to credit Ray for the Patterson footage somehow. They could only say they were sure he had something to do with it.

Even after thousands of credible eyewitnesses had come forward over the years to report their sightings, and piles of scientifically valuable evidence had been collected, the media still continued to falsely claim there is no evidence for the existence of bigfoots. But ironically, when a rural family came forward with some far-fetched, inconsistent claims, about a man who was locally famous for being a wild story teller, and his son held up some carved wooden track stompers ... that was nothing short of unquestionable proof to the mass media, and so it was affirmed by Jay Leno of NBC, Aaron Brown of CNN, Shepard Smith of Fox News, The New York Times, etc., etc.

Many people were amazed and confused at the downright ignorance of the media. People knew that sightings, encounters and track finds extended far back into the American history. They also knew the only significance of the 1958 finds was that the term "Bigfoot" was first coined then, and that term eventually supplanted the hundreds of local names across the continent, such as the Boggy Creek Monster of Arkansas, the Skunk Ape of Florida, the Mountain Devils of Vermont, the Omah of Northern California, and the Wendigo of the Great Lakes region.

The only thing that began in 1958 was the familiar nickname most people came to remember, not the track finds, the sightings, or anything else related to this subject.

Bigfoot researchers knew more about the Wallace family's claims, because they had dealt with Ray since the 1960's:

Ray's fake tracks and stompers were on display, hanging on the walls of his roadside tourist shop for years. The Wallace family recently implied that Ray had kept them in hidden since the 1960's.

Ray himself never claimed to have created the original "Bigfoot" tracks. His family attributed it to him only after his death -- conveniently when he wasn't around to deny it, or to be cross-examined by the surviving people who had been to the site at the time. Even the locals, like Al Hodgson in Willow Creek, who knew Ray Wallace well in the 1950's, say he wasn't in that part of California when the first tracks were found. All Wallace did, according to Hodgson, was complain that the footprints were making his workers quit and driving his company out of business.

The family didn't realize that Ray's fake casts weren't even the same size and shape of the 1958 casts. The news media didn't want to complicate their hot story with that troublesome fact -- Wallace's fake casts and stompers do not match the "Bigfoot" casts. No one in the media bothered to look at the obvious discrepancies in the photos. In one photo a Wallace family member holds the stompers he claims Ray used to make the original "Bigfoot" tracks found by Gerry Crew. The other one is the famous photo showing Gerry Crew holding the large cast which inspired a local reporter to coin the term "Bigfoot". It didn't matter to the media that they are visiblly different foot shapes. The story was too hot to treat responsibly. And it was about a "myth", so it didn't require any of the usual fact checking."

http://www.bfro.net/news/Wallace.asp

I wonder who this is?

"On another forum I belong to that specializes in discussions about Bigfoot, we welcome skeptics, and those who are actively persuing Bigfoot, either through field work or scrutinizing evidence and reports. It's a good combination. The issue of using certain types of woods to make feet, and their tendency to have their grain raised when wet was looked at, as a possible explanation for the appearance of these dermal ridges. Possible, but for the most part the measurements are wrong, as well as the pattern that would be produced. The casts of tracks have improved significantly over the plaster casts of those days by using new materials, such as dental stone and hydro-cel, which can pick up finer details, giving us more points to look at in verifying the probability the tracks being real versus faked."

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/t-15814_Man_Claims_He_Played_Bigfoot_In_Patterson_Film.html

Also,

"1) The Wallace story has been debunked, scientifically. It was a lie. The wooden track stompers shown to the media by the Wallace family do not match photos of the 1958 tracks they claim their father made. They are different foot shapes. See for yourself.

2) It is not physically possible to fake tracks with the shape, depth and stride of the Bluff Creek tracks, using any kind of wooden track stompers. Go ahead and try it sometime. Stompers large enough to produce the tracks cast in 1958 act like snowshoes in soft soil. They cannot create the heavy compression seen in the 1958 casts.

3) John Green has offered $100,000 dollars to anyone who can recreate the tracks the Wallaces claim their deceased father created. The Wallace family can't do it. One of the Wallace family members nearly killed himself trying to do it, as he was towed behind a pickup truck while wearing the wooden stompers, in front of media cameras.

4) The Wallace family waited for their father to die before propagating their bogus story, because Wallace himself would have been easily discredited upon cross examination by those who could prove he didn't know the key details about the tracks found by Jerry Crew.

5) Scientific luminaries such as Jane Goodall and George Schaller have recently become vocal advocates for the authenticity of the real evidence indicating the existence of these animals.

6) This is a very serious environmental issue. Television programs and films that mislead the public about it will eventually be viewed as something between distasteful and criminal exploitation of popular misconceptions, as more evidence and scientific support accumulates to show that the species exists, and is likely endangered."

http://www.bfro.net/news/Wallace.asp
 
Did you ever come up with a solution for how tracks could be produced in snow without stilts or any sign of human activity?

This is a straw man. You are deliberately adding unnecessary stilts to the requirement so you can dismiss the possibility. Why would there be a sign of human activity?

If you had you might not have shot yourself in the foot on Chilcutt.

My opinion of Chilcutt's "dermal ridges" has not changed, so how could I have shot myself in the foot? Chilcutt is wrong. There are no sasquatch dermal ridges on any bigfoot footprint casts. Chilcutt cannot show that there are any sasquatch dermal ridges on any bigfoot cast. Chilcutt can only show surface marks that he cannot explain, and claim they are of an unknown primate.

There are anatomical details in the prints that are correct for a very heavy creature in a mountainous environment.

What very heavy bipedal primate/hominid are you basing this on? This is just utter BS, pure and simple, spouted by believers to the choir.

A bigfoot believer's idea of an anatomically correct print is the Skookum cast for crying out loud. I need say no more.
 
http://www.isu.edu/~meldd/fxnlmorph.html

I see 2 Ray Wallace specials on this page. Funny how the expert doesn't recognize them. Nearly flat, and quite shallow. Obvious. Not anatomically correct, either.

The print is clearly one of Ray's, imo.

023.jpg


This one, too:

034.jpg



Variations in toe position are evident between footprints within a single trackway, as well as between individual subjects. In some instances the toes are sharply curled, leaving an undisturbed ridge of soil behind toe tips resembling "peas-in-a-pod."

Note that Meldrum actually uses a sign of a fake as reinforcement that the tracks are real. Peas in a pod indeed. Ray Wallace's peas in a pod.
 
This is like saying there are anatomically correct Martian footprints.

Without a Martian to match them up to, the statement is ridiculous.

I guess they have Martian dermal ridges, too.
 

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