Matt Crowley shoots down Bigfoot dermal ridges?

LTC8K6 said:
The Blue Creek print I posted is 13" long according to the caption, Matt.

You are correct. The caption is in error. Check it out; count off the marks on the Imperial ruler next to the track. I count 15 inches. This is what Green refers to as well.

I think you can see why I am not an apologist for Sasquatch. What is claimed to be important evidence for Sasquatch has routinely been mishandled, mislabeled, lost, or misidentified. The advocates are fond of claiming that "men have been given the death penalty on less evidence than there is for Sasquatch". But not when the evidence has been mishandled this poorly.

If you want to pursue this, there is an interesting thread on the BFF about the Blue Creek Mountain and Onion Mountain track find of 1967. You will find comparisons between the shapes of some of the tracks found and the Ray Wallace wooden foot. Hopefully this link will work:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=9553&hl=onion
 
tube said:
Oh, yes I do. I resent your implication that I am that stupid. Please review what exactly I am claiming. I am claiming that the Onion Mountain cast's surface textures are casting artifacts. I have gone to great lengths to demonstrate this and I have posted a link to that thread on the BFF. Further, I jumped into this thread to try and show what can and cannot be inferred from this novel data. I am the one making these claims and the burden of proof is on me. Do you really believe what you are accusing me of or are you just trying to bait me into some flame war?

That seems to be the accepted style of debate around here. We're not on BFF anymore, Toto.

Got matches?
 
From John Green, who was there:

"As to the comments on the BFF thread, one of the Wallace carvings is a fairly good copy of a typical 15" track, but its mate, the one with the long thin mark at the heel, is not. It is too narrow, too straight-sided, and the three small toes are only notched at the front, not separated. It looks to me to have been made obviously artificial so the maker could experiment with what could be done wearing fake feet but not risk fooling anyone--something both Grover Krantz and I have also done. There is indeed one photographed track with a similar line, unexplained, in the heel, but it is in only that one among hundreds. The line is not there in any other photo or any cast of the 15" track, and on close examination it is not a match."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=9553&st=20


And check the gif on this page:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=9553&st=60

Not even close, Bill, not even close.

Thanks for posting the link to the thread, tube. I'd missed that one.
 
Dredred said:
Well, this is also definately not my area of expertise and I'm only vaguely interested in it. That's why I didn't pay close enough attention to recall it very specifically, but I think the guy also showed another way to create dermal ridges, by imprinting the latex with something (can't remember what).


I don't know much about them but I think that someone who wants to believe is easy to fool (and that applies to scientists too, think of the scientific testing of Uri Geller for instance).

"Investigator Jimmy Chilcutt of the Conroe Police Department in Texas, who specializes in finger- and footprints, has analyzed the more than 150 casts of Bigfoot prints that Meldrum, the Idaho State professor, keeps in a laboratory.

Chilcutt says one footprint found in 1987 in Walla Walla in Washington State has convinced him that Bigfoot is real.

"The ridge flow pattern and the texture was completely different from anything I've ever seen," he said. "It certainly wasn't human, and of no known primate that I've examined. The print ridges flowed lengthwise along the foot, unlike human prints, which flow across. The texture of the ridges was about twice the thickness of a human, which indicated that this animal has a real thick skin." "

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1023_031023_bigfoot_2.html

Chilcutt is not only a forensic fingerprint expert, he's the only one to examine and document primate fingerprints (other than human).
 
Dredred said:
Obviously it would be possible to make a not so fragile product, if someone would want to. The problem is, someone who wants to disprove the possibility won't think of it. Someone who wants to actually make it would do a little experimenting with different techniques, like this one, and come up with a solution.


Baird suggested filling the foot with plaster. That would give a rigid foot with a fragile skin. I wouldn't want to try to fake, say seven miles of prints in snow or 590 beside a road with such a pair of contraptions. There's still the problem of the ridges, the dysplasia, articulating toes, proportion and the flow of ridges into a scar, just like on a *gasp* real foot.



And I've never claimed that you did. I claimed that you said that you thought it coudn't be done, but perhaps I misunderstood you. I asked you: "You've got pics of bigfoot footprints showing sweat pores, healed scars etc.? Interesting. Please share. However, don't you think even that could be faked?"


See Krantz, see Murphy. See Kling's comments that I've just posted.

On pg. 39 of Bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence is a photo of one of the Blue Mountain tracks with a stone located in the middle of it. Ed Palma, another fingerprint expert, was able to follow dermal ridges across the entire width of the track. This shows it was a single impression that spread down around all sides of the object.

If you think faking would be easy, go for the $100,000:

"The current Wallaces actually don’t show any sign of knowing much about the Bluff Creek tracks and may even believe that what they are saying is true, although one of them told Rick Noll that his father never actually said he had faked the tracks, they just grew up knowing he had.

The wooden feet that they showed the media, as you can see in the full-size photos of them on display here, do not match the original “Bigfoot”. They do appear to be attempts to duplicate the casts made by Bob Titmus of the different set of tracks he found on a Bluff Creek sandbar, but one of them is so crudely carved that they would not likely fool anybody.

I expect those feet were just made to see whether tracks could be faked with them, something that probably, like myself, some of you have also tried. The answer, of course, is that you can make passable tracks in flat ground if it is soft enough, but in firm materials or up and down slopes, forget it.

Some of the original tracks were in very firm materials, and some went up and down steep slopes. This museum has had an offer in circulation for several months now of $100,000 for anyone who can show how they could have been faked.

So far there is no sign that any Wallace cares to try for the money, but perhaps they haven’t heard of it. The same editors that swallowed whole their nonsensical story refused to believe a real one. Priding themselves, I suppose, on not falling for a publicity stunt, they gave the $100,000 offer no publicity at all.

Granted that the $100,000 was put up in an attempt to get publicity, since all other attempts to get the media to counteract the damage they had done had failed, but it is a genuine offer. The first person who can demonstrate how the Bluff Creek tracks could have been faked will be paid $100,000. Tomorrow, you when you hear the people who were involved at the time describe what they observed; I think you will agree that there is no cause for concern that the money will ever be claimed."

http://www.bigfootproject.org/articles/green_keynote.html
 
Last word on Wallace (for tonight):

"Bigfoot researchers knew more about the Wallace family's claims, because they had dealt with Ray since the 1960's:

Ray's fake tracks and stompers were on display, hanging on the walls of his roadside tourist shop for years. The Wallace family recently implied that Ray had kept them in hidden since the 1960's.

Ray himself never claimed to have created the original "Bigfoot" tracks. His family attributed it to him only after his death -- conveniently when he wasn't around to deny it, or to be cross-examined by the surviving people who had been to the site at the time. Even the locals, like Al Hodgson in Willow Creek, who knew Ray Wallace well in the 1950's, say he wasn't in that part of California when the first tracks were found. All Wallace did, according to Hodgson, was complain that the footprints were making his workers quit and driving his company out of business.

The family didn't realize that Ray's fake casts weren't even the same size and shape of the 1958 casts. The news media didn't want to complicate their hot story with that troublesome fact -- Wallace's fake casts and stompers do not match the "Bigfoot" casts. No one in the media bothered to look at the obvious discrepancies in the photos. In one photo a Wallace family member holds the stompers he claims Ray used to make the original "Bigfoot" tracks found by Gerry Crew. The other one is the famous photo showing Gerry Crew holding the large cast which inspired a local reporter to coin the term "Bigfoot". It didn't matter to the media that they are visiblly different foot shapes. The story was too hot to treat responsibly. And it was about a "myth", so it didn't require any of the usual fact checking.



The scariest 'Big Brother' anecodate from the Wallace media blitz: The New York Times story.

On January 3, 2003, the New York Times ran a front page story with the headline "Search for Bigfoot Outlives the Man Who Created Him". In the story reporter Timothy Egan painted the whole subject as one driven by foolish beliefs of people in the Northwest, and suggested there was no credible evidence.

Like many of the other misleading stories, it completely bought into the Wallace family claims. It credited Wallace as the one who created the whole legend, and perpetuated it over the years.

In one part of the story Egan writes, "Bigfoot defenders, including at least two scientists and a clinical psychologist who says he ran into the Big Guy two years ago in southern Oregon, are undeterred. They give Mr. Wallace credit for the hoax, which led to news stories around the world and began thousands of campfire debates. But, they say other evidence is too strong ..."

The three people Egan was referring to are Dr. Jeff Meldrum, Dr. Henner Fahrehbach, and Dr. Matthew Johnson.

Dr. Johnson told Timothy Egan squarely that he didn't know one way or the other about the Wallace family claims. He didn't give Wallace credit for any hoax whatsoever, and didn't know anything about him.

Dr. Fahrenbach told Egan right up front that he knew Wallace faked tracks in the past, but Fahrenbach made no comment about the 1958 tracks -- the "hoax" Egan refers to above. Egan didn't question Fahrenbach about his stance on that episode, and Fahrenbach says he certainly "did not give Wallace credit for that one." Fahrenbach was shocked to read Egan's article, wherein he found more than one statement falsely attributed to him.

The most egregious false attribution came from Egan's interview with Dr. Meldrum. During Egan's phone interview, Meldrum similarly did not "give Mr. Wallace credit for the hoax". But, unlike the others, Meldrum did have something to say about it. He explained to Egan how he could prove that Wallace didn't have anything to do with the 1958 "Bigfoot" tracks. Egan asked Meldrum detailed questions about how he could demonstrate it. Meldrum explained himself in detail.

Regardless of whether Egan accepted Meldrum's analysis, Egan clearly got the message that Meldrum did not give Wallace "credit for the hoax". Meldrum did say he had some likely fake casts from that region which could have been made by Wallace, but those were clearly distinguished from the specific track finds Egan was asking about.

Of the two PhD's and the one clinical psychologist who were interviewed by Egan for this New York Times story, all of them say that Egan falsely attributed statements to them. Of those three people, only one had any comments about the 1958 track finds, and those comments were exactly the opposite of what Egan attributed to all three of them. Egan's cross-examination of Meldrum over the phone during their interview makes it certain that Egan knew Meldrum did not give Wallace credit for the tracks in question, yet this is what Egan wrote, for the front page of the New York Times, January 3, 2003.

If a politician, celebrity or prominent businessman had done something like this, it would have been a major scandal ... and would have been vigorously investigated by the New York Times."

http://www.bfro.net/news/Wallace.asp
 
If the 67 Onion Mountain cast is the same as the 67 Blue Creek cast, then Chilcutt's report on the 97 Elkins Creek cast would seem to be devastating to dermal ridges.

Yeah, it's very frustrating to try to make any progress. Poor documentation everywhere. I am glad I said "if", or I would have been wrong. :D

Jimmy is still wrong though, imo. He has not seen any dermal ridges in bigfoot casts except transfers from humans, imo.
 
Lu, why the repeat of all of the Ray Wallace folderol? We have been over that way more than once.

The print I posted is clearly a Ray Wallace fake. It is hardly my fault that it was presented in a report on Chilcutt.

While DDA's overlay is interesting, it is not necessarily accurate. It's convincing to do such an overlay, but distortion can creep in, making you think things don't line up.

Note that the left edge is a pretty darn good match. There could be some stretching going on there.
 
It looks to me like DDA has overlaid the Wallace left foot on to a right foot track.

Being carved from wood, the Wallace left and right feet might be quite different.

I have been unable to find an image of both Wallace feet, though.

It almost looks like the right foot has toes that curve differently than the left in this photo, but I am unwilling to go that far without a better picture.

bigfoothoax.jpg
 
Some of the original tracks were in very firm materials, and some went up and down steep slopes. This museum has had an offer in circulation for several months now of $100,000 for anyone who can show how they could have been faked.

Check out the conditions..

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/reward.htm


I agree, they are in no danger of losing their 100 thou...



I guess it doesn't occur to them that $100,000 toward actual research would be more worthwhile...


No, wait! It probably has occured to them.. Wonder why it hasn't been done?
 
LTC8K6 said:
The litte toe side of DDA's overlay image lacks the curvature of this image of a Wallace foot. The toe curve appears to be a lot less in DDA's overlay image as well.

10-1-bigfoot-Wallace_foot.gif

If I have seen this close up black and white photo of the Wallace fake foot before, I don't remember it. One can clearly see how coarse the plantar surface is. What caused this? A man bounding down a dirt roadway being pulled by a towrope attached to a truck? Were the feet left outside in the rain and have simply weathered? Were they distressed artificially in a cunning hoax by the Wallace family to secure a film deal? However it got there I think we all have to acknowledge that the plantar surface is significantly worn.

A Bigfooter I know suggested to me that a carved foot could not make tracks like the Blue Creek Mountain tracks because the toes would break off. He further asserted that Ray Wallace probably used the fake feet as a static impressioning tool to create fake casts which he displayed in a roadside museum of his. My friend could be right. What is worthwhile to me about his first notion is that it is testable. I'll have to see if I can find a dusty road somewhere...

I question how this fake foot's plantar surface could become so distressed by any kind of static soil contact. If you take a careful look at the color photo you can see the "superior" surface of the foot (where you would strap in your own foot) is no where near as distressed as the plantar surface.

Please note how I use the word "question" and not "know". This field has WAY too many claims to knowledge flying around on both advocate and skeptic "sides". I'm willing to admit I don't KNOW, and that's OK.

Based on the wear pattern of the plantar surface alone, I'm inclined to believe these fake feet were used as the Wallace family said they were.
 
You are right Matt, and I never noticed that.

It is certainly not the surface you think of when someone mentions carved wooden feet.

I have read that the feet were made of alder.
 
Shortly after Ray Wallace died Loren Coleman's Yahoo message board erupted in a prolonged debate between John Green and Scott Herriott. If you want to pursue the esoterica of the whole Ray "Superfoot" Wallace thing you might want to check it out.

I don't know if you have to sign up and become a member in order to veiw the archives of Loren's group or not. Let me post this link and hopefully it will work.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bigfoot/message/10338
 
LTC8K6 said:
There must be more than one set of Wallace feet. The one I keep seeing compared on bigfoot sites looks nothing like the set of feet Dale Wallace is holding.


To his credit, Rick Noll contacted the Wallace family sometime after this story came out and asked to simply photograph (and I assume measure) the various wooden feet they had. He was rebuffed on the grounds that they were "making a movie". What I suspect, but do not know, that this means is that someone bought the rights to the Wallace story. Many movie concepts or scripts are never made into actual movies.

The National Geographic TV special which aired several months ago had a quick shot of a box full of Wallace wooden feet. My guess is that inquiring Bigfooters will never know exactly what Ray "Superfoot" Wallace did or did not do...
 
LTC8K6 said:
Lu, why the repeat of all of the Ray Wallace folderol? We have been over that way more than once.


I didn't bring it up, but I see no reason I should let a falsehood go unanswered. This is a new thread. Some posters may have missed the earlier discussions. I don't want them to be misled.

The print I posted is clearly a Ray Wallace fake. It is hardly my fault that it was presented in a report on Chilcutt.


The print was clearly not made by the fake foot, though the photo or a cast may have been used as a model.

While DDA's overlay is interesting, it is not necessarily accurate. It's convincing to do such an overlay, but distortion can creep in, making you think things don't line up.

Note that the left edge is a pretty darn good match. There could be some stretching going on there.

And you seem to be doing the stretching.

There were 590 tracks found by the roadway on Blue Creek Mountain and not all of the same individual. Some had been obliterated by traffic on the road, so there may have been over a thousand.

I resent the implication that Chillcut can't tell the difference between a print made by a living foot and that of a crude wooden foot. That you can't is hardly surprising, given your mind set on this, but I think he would find this laughable.

There's a comparison photo of the Crews cast, the Wallace foot and a Titmus cast on pg. 109 of Meet the Sasquatch. The differences are clear. Titmus (who was an "unbeliever to begin with) took casts of the prints of several individuals in that area from 1958 to 1967. Some of them can be seen on pg. 112. They were obviously not made by Wallace's feet either.

Note that Wallace never confessed to any of this. His family just "always knew" he did it. His phony feet were on display, not hidden as they said. He had a souvenier business going and sold phony photos to tourists. This hardly makes him a master hoaxer and researchers were on to him for years.

Weren't we discussing the Onion Mountain cast?
 
LAL said:
...snip...
There were 590 tracks found by the roadway on Blue Creek Mountain and not all of the same individual. Some had been obliterated by traffic on the road, so there may have been over a thousand.

...snip...

Here´s another shot in the feet (pun intended).

At the other thread, LAL wrote that bigfeet always roamed far from roads. Or at places with no roads at all. Here´s "over a thousand" footprints at or nearby a road.

Where are the roadkills?
 
Weren't we discussing the Onion Mountain cast?

No, but Matt and I were. I am never sure what you are doing. Fortunately we resolved the issue.

The print was clearly not made by the fake foot, though the photo or a cast may have been used as a model.

You mean that you think the sandals were modeled on the print, rather than the print being made by the sandals?

I am done conversing with you, Lu.

I can't abide deliberate obtuseness for long, and I have reached my limit with you.

Good luck.
 

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