Matt Crowley shoots down Bigfoot dermal ridges?

Hey William,

You're leaving the part out of the sig, where the bell ringer leaves a pamphlet for the resident to study at their leisure .. No charge, but they do accept donations to cover the cost of printing..
 
Whoa !

I was just browsing around over at the BFRO and came across this..

2003 Willow Creek Symposium Program


Dermal ridge evidence in footprint casts - Mr. Jimmy Chilcutt
Latent fingerprint examinations of over 100 Bigfoot track casts have revealed the existence of dermal ridges. Focusing on three casts a 1967 northern California track, a track from Walla Walla, Washington, and one from Elkins Creek, Georgia exhibiting the same ridge pattern flow, Mr. Chilcutt explains his conclusion that these casts are from the same species of animal.


Whats wrong with this picture.. ( Hint.. What are Mr. Chilcutt 's credentials ? )
 
tube said:
THEY ARE ALL PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT IN SHAPE!

At this point various apologies are made by Bigfooters like "we must have multiple species" or "we must be seeing inbreeding". To me, the obvious, parsimonious explanation is that we are seeing human (hoaxer) creativity in action!

Tube, mainstream science cannot prove that there are not 9 different species of Bigfoot. You must understand the shortcomings of the dogmatic status quo.

Once you embrace this, the Sasquatch will charge at you... smashing huge branches and permeating the surrounding air with stench. Your trusty dog will shrink and cower. Fear will prevent you from taking pictures of this massive ape. If you do get pictures, a secondary fear will take over... preventing you from sharing them because of the terror of ridicule by your fellow man.
 
LAL said:
One quick look. Uh huh. I'm sure you don't think Green was endorsing those opinions.

Nope, and I don't recall saying he did. I was merely pointing out some scientists that appeared to be unconvinced of the validity of the Patterson film.

Krantz found several errors in Grieve's work...

I don't believe Krantz was completely without error himself. He seemed to be one of the few bigfoot proponents that believed the Bossburg prints were authentic, and he based that on one track and a pair of casts. He was even somehow able to determine the bone structure of the feet without ever examining an actual foot. That doesn't seem very scientific. He DID conclude (page 254 of Big Footprints) that...

"The result is still the same -- very few recognized anthropologists or primatologists take it [Patterson film] seriously..."

I think it was the article by Montagna that I was referring to (it's been called "emotional rejection"). His rejection was largely because of the hair on the breasts; he may be the one Krantz referred to who had just published a paper on human hairy breasts. The hair as an adaptation for cold has already been addressed.

Dr. Montagna does touch on the lack of long hair on the breasts, but he also says (page 131 of Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us)...

"To believers who complain that we scientists are too opinionated to look at the evidence, I reply: Is a scientist to listen to every zealot who regales him with tales of a putrid stench, who shows him fake footprints, or makes films of a man wearing a badly tailored monkey suit? The scientist who is reviled because he won't listen to fantasy goes securely on his way, knowing that life is so full of real wonderment and mystery that he does not have to fantasize."

It's emotional, all right:

It seems to be how actual science works.

I don't know why Heuvelmans thought the film was a fake.

I don't have the details, only his opinion at the time it was given.

Daegling relies on his own insistance the exact distance between subject and camera can't be known (it was, for at least the shot where she turns) and that this could throw off height by a foot and a half.

I would argue that Daegling relies on science. Producing a dead body would be all it takes to effectively shut him up.

"At its first showing, at the University of British Columbia, the film was well received by an audience of scientists, museum staff, and members of the press—no one suggested it was a fake."

That's somewhat misleading. There seems to be a good reason no one at the first screening suggested it was a fake -- they were under strict orders not to comment on the film. How did you determine if it was well received or not?

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/pgf_history.htm
"On October 26, 1967, the film was shown at the University of British Columbia (U.B.C.). Two screenings were conducted. The first screening was given to University scientists only. The second screening was to university scientists and Don Abbott and Frank Beebe (both of the British Columbia Provincial Museum). Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin were at both sessions to answer questions. They also showed the audience the casts of the footprints found at the film site. Whether or not the second film roll was shown at these sessions is not clear. John Green, who was present, states this roll was shown; Rene Dahinden, also present, says it was not shown. Unfortunately, this roll vanished in the early 1970s.

The university scientists were under strict orders not to comment one way or the other on the authenticity of the film. To this day, there has been no official comment from this group."

The second screening however, had no disclosure restriction for Abbott and Beebe.

"Frank Beebe, although impressed with the film, implied the strong likelihood of a hoax. Don Abbott did not give a personal opinion at this time."

I think you only get four because of Montagna.

I quoted Montagna, Napier, Heuvelmans, Daegling, and Grieve. Since you didn't indicate who your source was, I have no idea if it was Montagna or not. (Krantz makes no mention of Montagna in relation to hairy breasts, so you may be thinking of someone else.) I've now added the quote relating to Frank Beebe of the British Columbia Provincial Museum.

Make it three because Grieve did not conclude the film was a fake. "The possibility of fakery is ruled out if the speed of the film was 16 or 18fps." We've been over that. The camera was set at 16 fps, but was probably running at 18 fps.

Grieve certainly didn't give the film a ringing endorsement either.

None said the data is "rubbish".

None were prepared to call the film authentic either.

RayG
 
RayG said:

This? I was planning to post it last night but opted for bed instead.

"Happy Labor Day folks.

I'd just like to add a few comments about us lazy, ignorant, dogmatic, scared of getting a bug bite scientists who are obivously dropping the ball on the whole sasquatch search thing:

If any of you guys would have liked to come here and take over my classes, planned the field seasons for my funded research projects, taken over my committee obligations, cleaned up that manuscript I was writing, mowed my lawn, and watched my kids all on short notice, I would have gladly trekked up to Manitoba last spring so a "real scientist" could have been on the scene to investigate.

(I hope this sounds as silly to you as it does to me. And I don't mean to pick on Hunster - he just provided a great example to illustrate my point.)

The notion that we so-called scientists - the ones who apparently declare things like whether or not the mainstream should believe in the existence of an organism - are sitting at the helipad ready to be airdropped at the most recent blobsquatch filming location is complete nonsense. If by "scientists" you mean trained wildlife professionals working at universities, then I submit to you that I am pretty typical: We do funded research that supports the work of graduate students, we have teaching obligations, and we provide service to professional societies to promote education and conservation. That's what we do. Maybe there is a tiny handful of us who break that mold and go afield for weeks or months at a time just to look for stuff, but it's invariably for funded research projects, and really a tiny percentage of us who do that kind of work. The Cornell Lab of Ornithology's Ivory-billed Woodpecker searches are an excellent example - and look at the media coverage they get! They get that coverage because their work is an extraordinary departure from the way the rest of us do research on wildlife these days.

I also want to clue you guys into another fallacy expressed in this thread - namely that no scientists are looking for sasquatch. I disagree. YOU GUYS are looking for sasquatch! We mainstream scientists don't know a $%^& thing about tracking North American Wood Apes, so why sit around grousing that none of US are in the field looking for it? Clearly it's the people writing in to forums such as this who are in a much better position to unravel this mystery, because you are the ones who apparently know what to look for in the field. So do it - don't wait around for us. Why not organize yourselves, write up some grant proposals, and get going on your own? You don't need a PhD to be a scientist, you just have to apply the scientific method to your work.

Finally, on the idea that we need these weeks-to-months long expeditions in the field to find sasquatch because they only occur in these rugged, remote wilderness areas, blah, blah . . . I say hogwash. Check out the BFRO's database on sightings by region - you'll find multiple reports from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, New York, Maryland, New Jersey, Delaware, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island - Rhode $%^&^! Island - expeditions to the remotest parts of these states would not take weeks, yet sasquatch is apparently alive and well here. So either the squatch isn't nearly as dependent on unbroken wilderness as we like to think, or these reports are bogus. And if these reports are bogus, why should we put any stock in any of the others posted on a site like the BFRO?

I'm not trying to get y'all riled up - just point out that believers can't have it both ways. You can't say that we haven't brought back one of these creatures for scientific study because scientists aren't willing to trek back into the remotest wilderness areas where they live, and then expect us to accept sighting reports from the most densely populated areas of the US. You can't expect scientists to go on bigfoot expeditions when we don't know the first thing about tracking such creatures in the field. Finally, you can't expect that we scientists can drop everything to go apply our feeble sasquatch identification skills every time you guys get wind of a report that sounds convincing. So you're going to have to do it yourselves, and by "it" I mean bring back a body or part thereof. When you get it, don't call Fox News, call your friendly neighborhood Museum of Comparative Anatomy.

Peace,

~Saskeptic"

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11553&st=120&#entry259658

I guess that explains why I never saw teams of wildlife biologists looking for wolves in the Southern Cascades. Take note, Correa.
 
Diogenes said:
Hey William,

You're leaving the part out of the sig, where the bell ringer leaves a pamphlet for the resident to study at their leisure .. No charge, but they do accept donations to cover the cost of printing..

In real life I have talked to half a dozen people about this in the last couple of years, all close friends or members of WNCatheists, where we talk about all sorts of "taboo" subjects.

I'm no bell ringer.

Do you two have anything better to do than try to make fun of me, or should I just apply the filter since neither of you seems to have anything of substance to contribute?
 
I guess that explains why I never saw teams of wildlife biologists looking for wolves in the Southern Cascades. Take note, Correa.
Or any number of creatures that we actually have evidence for their existance.. ?

Just can't see the difference, can you ?

Interesting how you apparently believe the lengthy post you quoted above is a slap at science, when the exact opposite is true.

Science doesn't have to embrace something to make it so. The Bigfoot community has the power to make the scientific community stop and look, but the best you can do is Moneymaker, Wallace, Patterson, Freeman et al... And you wonder why few outside of your community take you seriously...
 
I have seen clear video of sasquatch, but I am under strict orders not to tell you all about what I saw. :D

I have mentioned those orders before regarding the P/G film. I notice Lu never mentions them......
 
Diogenes said:
Or any number of creatures that we actually have evidence for their existance.. ?

I guess you missed the exchange. Wolves are (or were, last I heard) thought to be extinct in the Southern Cascades. Correa thought there should be teams of wildlife experts out studying wolves, etc. in the U.S.

Just can't see the difference, can you ?

There's evidence; just not a specimen. Other new species have been identified without a specimen recently. Not implying a double standard here........


Interesting how you apparently believe the lengthy post you quoted above is a slap at science, when the exact opposite is true.


Interesting how you would think I think that. It was written by a scientist. Why would I think it's a slap? I hope you're not trying to make a living as a mind reader.

I've noted several times that people, including scientists, who investigate do so on their own time and their own dime (with the exception of Byrne who got funding). Freeman spent around $50,000 on the quest, going out about three times a week. Dahinden devised his shot business so he could have plenty of time to pursue leads. He took the Patterson film to Russia at his own expense. Krantz went out weekends, armed.

Science doesn't have to embrace something to make it so. The Bigfoot community has the power to make the scientific community stop and look, but the best you can do is Moneymaker, Wallace, Patterson, Freeman et al... And you wonder why few outside of your community take you seriously...

I'm not in the community. The best "I" can do? Who says they're the "best"? Oh, you.

Patterson failed to pay the rent on the camera does not=the film is a hoax.

I gave you Schaller, Goodall, Sarmiento, Mittermeier, and Swindler and you accused me of "name dropping". Titmus brought in a lot of evidence and there's no hint of fraud around him, nor about Al Hodson. The MD film was shot by a camper.

Wallace didn't bring in any evidence at all, that I know of. Some of the evidence found by Marx and Freeman is compelling. Marx did his fakery later and was exposed by Byrne in short order. Much has been made of Freeman admitting on a Good Morning America show he faked tracks, but it somehow was overlooked that the tracks were to spook the neighbors. There's nothing to indicate he faked anything at the time of his sighting and his1994 footage seems to be holding up. Krantz knew, in one instance, who planted fake hair and when but he doesn't identify the culprit. You have not shown Patterson faked anything. The BFRO is falling apart due to the actions of its leader. This should not refect on the membership. Much of the material is copyrighted and there may be lawsuits if Moneymaker doesn't comply in returning it to the rightful owners.

The case doesn't rest on Bossburg or Elk Wallow. Marx' and Freeman's evidence can be thrown out entirely without affecting much. Wallace was never taken seriously. Why the media hype on his family's bogus story should reflect on the "community" is beyond me. (It seems they got their film deal, BTW.) Did Green's refutation get the same kind of coverage?

Krantz tried for years to interest science and mostly got what he termed an "I'll see it when I believe it" response. Green has bashed his head on that particular wall for decades, but there are a few who have taken the time to take a serious look. It would seem Meldrum's work at Idaho has gained more acceptance than Krantz' at Washington State. Maybe the times they are a'changing.
 
http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wolves.htm

You'd think some of these folks would have some pics of bigfoot, or at least some good stories to tell.

Agency biologists, non-profit groups, and private scientists are studying wolf occurrences and distribution in Washington. The results of monitoring using human howling surveys, remote cameras, and other techniques will give scientists information on the wolf for development of a conservation-management strategy.
 
William Parcher said:
Tube, mainstream science cannot prove that there are not 9 different species of Bigfoot. You must understand the shortcomings of the dogmatic status quo.

Once you embrace this, the Sasquatch will charge at you... smashing huge branches and permeating the surrounding air with stench. Your trusty dog will shrink and cower. Fear will prevent you from taking pictures of this massive ape. If you do get pictures, a secondary fear will take over... preventing you from sharing them because of the terror of ridicule by your fellow man.

You forgot the part where fear of Foot prevents you from using autofocus or zoom...
 
RayG said:
Yes. I thought it was a well-worded response to those who expect scientists to swarm all over the latest field 'evidence' on short notice.

RayG

Yes. It takes time and money as well as interest. Even Meldrum can only do this as a sideline.

Did you see Noll's post on how much he's put into this? 30,000 miles...........
 
LTC8K6 said:
http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wolves.htm

You'd think some of these folks would have some pics of bigfoot, or at least some good stories to tell.

I hope they can confirm the presence of Wolves in the Southern Cascades. As I've mentioned, I had a friend who saw them. He's probably dead by now, but it would be good to know he's vindicated anyway.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Pass the bong over here wouldja?

You must be talking to one of your baiting buddies. I was wondering what some of you are on. Now I know.

Care to back up the implication there was something wrong with the Elk Wallow tracks? The 1994 film?

It's going to take a lot of typing to to quote the point by point refutation of Hardin's report, but I'm ready if you are.
 
I asked you to pass the bong, Lu.

I didn't say I was going to take a hit off of it. :D

As for Freeman....

Fruit of the poisoned tree, I say.

No one should accept anything that has any connection to Marx or Freeman or anyone else who is tainted.

This is a perfectly reasonable position to take. It's the position most people would take.
 
BFRO Commentary:
Q&A with Dr. Meldrum about this article

Q: The article mentions a track that Chilcutt determined was fake. What is the origin of that track?

A: The "fake" element was overstated by the reporters. It was one of Freeman's casts from Elk Wallow (if memory serves me, but I will check the location name).

There was evidence of contamination by human fingerprints in the toe region. The question remains whether this was intentional or not.

There seems to be a natural inclination to touch tracks, brush away debris, or even embellish an indistinct spot. One of the toes clearly had a triple strike, in that the core pattern of a fingertip (human appearing ridge texture) was repeated down the length of the toe. This may have been done by Freeman or any of the numerous other individuals who examined the tracks prior to their casting.

What the reporter failed to mention was that along the margins of the foot there were examples of the distinct coarse textured ridges trending parallel to the margins of the foot! So it is not unreasonable to conclude that a legitimate footprint was literally "touched up" in the toe region.

Dr. Jeff Meldrum
Associate Professor of Anatomy and Anthropology
Idaho State University
Affiliate Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology
Idaho Museum of Natural History

Affiliate Curator of the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization

Contamination by human fingerprints?

You don't say!!!! :p

Freeman's fingerprints and Matt's casting effects.
 

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