Materialists......

Geoff said:
Certainly not (c). Not (a) either because you do not need to introduce an ontological position into your description of mental states. You can just talk about them: beliefs, desires, qualia.... (b), yes probably. Mental states are denoted by "folk psychological" terms.
Then by all means, eliminate mental states. I think various terms involving the word mind will stick around as names for brain states, at least in science. In philosophy, it's probably best to eliminate the word completely, since it's laden with dualistic notions.

In any event, in the scientific context, none of this denies that people experience fear. It's just a question of what fear really is.

~~ Paul
 
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In any event, in the scientific context, none if this denies that people experience fear.

~~ Paul

How much room for interpretation is there here?:

"Modern eliminativists have much more clearly expressed the view that mental phenomena simply do not exist..."

What is it that people do not understand about the phrase "does not exist"????

You are doing exactly what Rorty and Feyerabend did - trying to claim that mental states don't exist but do exist.

It should be added that both Rorty and Feyerabend later abandoned eliminative materialism.
 
Well, I would take the definitions and information in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy over answers.com any day for matters philosophical.

OK, then...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/materialism-eliminative/

Eliminative materialism (or eliminativism) is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong and that some or all of the mental states posited by common-sense do not actually exist.

:con2:

(edited to add)
But rather than getting into a war over whose sources are more authoritative....

How can there be a war when both sources say the same thing?

, why not address the actual content of my post?

Because I don't think it was directly relevant to what we are discussing and I don't have anything interesting to say in response.
 
How much room for interpretation is there here?:

"Modern eliminativists have much more clearly expressed the view that mental phenomena simply do not exist..."

Rather alot, if you include the rest of that sentence. Here is the whole thing:

Modern eliminativists have much more clearly expressed the view that mental phenomena simply do not exist and will eventually be eliminated from our thinking about the brain in the same way that demons have been eliminated from our thinking about mental illness and psychopathology.

The information you elided out changes the meaning of the sentence rather drastically (at least, for me). It does not deny the existence of mind -- it asserts that the concepts we break "mind" down into or attribute to "mind" are flawed and in severe need of redefinition or replacement with more accurate concepts. The 'mental phenomena' referred to in the wikipedia quote refer to the 'concepts' in my prior sentence, not to 'mind'.

(ed. added the last sentence for clarification, and changed ine instance of "denies" to "asserts". Sorry if there was confusion.)
 
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Geoff said:
What is it that people do not understand about the phrase "does not exist"????
Nothing, but the relevant phrase is "mental phenomena do not exist." What is a mental phenomenon? And who is making this statement, philosophers or scientists?

~~ Paul
 
Eliminative materialism (or eliminativism) is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong and that some or all of the mental states posited by common-sense do not actually exist.
So? Indeed, our common sense understanding of mental states is flawed.

Geoff said:
How can there be a war when both sources say the same thing?
They don't say the same thing! This one uses the adjective common sense.

~~ Paul
 
http://wmuphilosophy.blogspot.com/2005/03/consequences-of-eliminativism.html

When one considers that it follows from eliminativism that no one believes in eliminativism and there are no beliefs that confirm or deny eliminativism, this consequence of eliminativism can be downright baffling.

The aforementioned consequence of eliminativism is well known. But what other consequences follow from eliminativism? Consider what Stich himself suggests [From Folk Psychology to Cognitive Science (Cambridge, MA: MIT, 1983), 242], "Might it be the case that ordinary folk psychological ascriptions will turn out, quite generally, not to be true? The answer I have been urging is that this is a serious possibility.... If we had to renounce folk psychology, we should probably have to renounce the notions of personhood and agency as well." Baker draws thirteen consequences that follow if eliminativism is true (Saving Belief, 130-32).

(1) The ability to predict others' behavior would become inexplicable. Suppose I call you on the phone and invite you to dinner at 7:00 on Saturday--without any beliefs, intentions, or desires, it would be amazing if I actually prepared dinner for you and you showed up.

(2) Commonplace interaction among people and what is said about such interactions would become mysterious.

(3) Behavior could never go wrong. Without folk psychological concepts like intention, one could never be said to have done something unintentionally or by accident or by mistake. Without any distinction between intentional and unintentional actions, justifying and excusing behavior cannot be sensibly maintained.

(4) Almost every explanation that anyone has ever given would be false.

(5) There would be no distinction between what we call lying and an honest mistake.

(6) Every moral judgment would be false or senseless.

(7) Nothing would ever have mattered to anybody.

(8) It would be a total mystery why we say the things we do (though not why we emit the noises we emit) and why we give the explanations of our actions that we do.

(9) It would be a miracle that we are able systematically to utter truths.

(10) Reports of deliberation and decision would be false.

(11) What one does would be totally unrelated to what one reports that she thinks she is doing.

(12) Most of applied psychology, from market research to the various psychotherapies, would be bogus.

(13) The explananda of psychology would become problematic.

Now this, so far, has not been an argument against eliminativism. Thus far, I have only shown that "if elimantivism is true, then these consequences follow." But I think we can turn this into an argument against eliminativism. Since eliminativism entails the denial of numerous facts most people find more plausible than eliminativism itself, we could employ modus tollens on the eliminativist. In other words, eliminativists want to argue that since eliminativism is true, we must reject folk psychology and accept the 13 consequences noted above. I, on the other hand, want to argue that since we cannot accept the 13 consequences noted above, eliminativism must be false.

:)
 
"Empirical" means "based on experience", as opposed to being based on pure theory or on pure reason. The empirical world is the world we know about because of our experiences of a world. Yes, radio waves are part of the phenomenal world.

The radio transmitters and recievers are things we experience.
You're allowing a great deal of indirectness here, in your definitions of "empirical" and "phenomenal". Everything we know, we know because of our experiences, at least indirectly.
 
You're allowing a great deal of indirectness here, in your definitions of "empirical" and "phenomenal". Everything we know, we know because of our experiences, at least indirectly.

Which is why Kant argued we can never know anything about noumenal reality.
 
Geoff said:
Paul, can you not see the words "do not actually exist"?
Yes, Geoff, I see the words. It says:

Eliminative materialism (or eliminativism) is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong and that some or all of the mental states posited by common-sense do not actually exist.
You see "ordinary," "some or all," and "posited by common-sense," right? Those are qualifiers.

Minds, and things in minds.
Thanks for defining mental state in terms of mind. That helps a whole big bunch.

We've had this argument before, and we still can't find a clear definition of eliminative materialism. Heck, I bet there are varying degrees of it.

That article you quoted is just silly.

~~ Paul
 
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"It is my supposition that minds are processes in brains."

OK.....but at this point I am unclear about exactly what the word "are" means in your sentence. "is" has over twenty meanings in English and I need to know which one you mean. These are the main ones:...Geoff

I mean "are", as in "really, really are" (Feel free to add more "really"s if it helps clarify the meaning).

ie I don't think minds are "caused by" neural process. I think they are neural process.
It's easy to be misled by experiments which put one kind of modified galvanometer or another on the bonce and demonstrate electromagnetic activity and say "This is neural process". Of course, it's nothing of the kind. It's a recording of electromagnetic activity. We could record the signal- but we would not have "mind" on tape. Mind IS the process. The instant the process stops, mind does not exist.

I don't think you have any freedom as to whether or not you like pretty girls. -jg

I agree.

I've lost track of why we are discussing this, though.-jg

Well, pretty girls are interesting in themselves, but my point was that I can't see where my free will rests in this case. If the unconscious can't have free will because " it doesn't even know what it's doing "- *(An assumption I would seriously question)- and my conscious mind has no choice in the matter, we appear to have an impasse. Where is "my" free will in this case? You mean I only have freedom in restricted areas?

* I'll grant you that the conscious may not know what the unconscious is doing- which is probably just as well.

As it happens, of course, I agree with this exact view. As a materialist, (which I understand I am), I merely think that the restricted areas are restricted by limitations of the hardware.

(Edit to correct quote.)
 
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Everyone seems to agree that if we bust up the brain, various internal experiences that we call mind tend to disappear or work quite differently. So either processes in those parts of the brain are those internal experiences, or they are some sort of receiver/filter for those experiences or components thereof. Is there a way we could devise an experiment to tell the difference?

~~ Paul
 
Everyone seems to agree that if we bust up the brain, various internal experiences that we call mind tend to disappear or work quite differently. So either processes in those parts of the brain are those internal experiences, or they are some sort of receiver/filter for those experiences or components thereof. Is there a way we could devise an experiment to tell the difference?

~~ Paul
Put the subject in a Faraday cage and see if he can still think?
 
Would that stop the (carrier-wave) gravitons? :p

Channeling Franko ..... :D


PS. Set up the experiment to prove that wrong.
 
Well, Dennett's business card does say "Philosopher" so he has to really :) .

I've noted that when people dismiss either Dennet or Dawkins, they usually have not read them--they just heard that they were atheists, and therefore disregard everything they might have to say. I do not think either Dennett or Dawkins go "out of bound"--they give you evidence you can check out for yourself. They don't claim "mysterious knowledge" of the "divine". Justgeoff needs to believe he's divine and here for a purpose--

Scientists don't deny a mind--but there is no mind without a brain. A mind is a term used in science to reflect the way the brain perceives data--There has never been a scintilla of evidence for any type of consciousness outside the body--not "synchornicity", souls, gods, demons, fairies, or thetans. Humans reinvent such entities over and over (angels had their place in the sun for awhile), but they are very clearly human illusions...just like the illusions of UFO Alien probes. We know humans are easy to fool...and easily deluded. We know the most commone errors they make in logic. We know that the brain has evolved to seek meaning and patterns whether they are there or not--to attribute cause and effect, when it may just be a correlation.

I am annoyed by all this pedantic blustery sematic games in an attempt to prove an unprovable claim. Justgeoff--tell us how your thinking differs from ours without using terms like monism, reductive, materialism, mind, free will. Give concrete examples if you want us to care or comprehend what you are trying to say--dialogue goes two ways--you've been playing a clever game of "no true scotsman" and it reeks of a deluded man trying to convince himself by convincing others that his "woo" is true.
 
Everyone seems to agree that if we bust up the brain, various internal experiences that we call mind tend to disappear or work quite differently.

Brains are necessary for minds. (less words).

So either processes in those parts of the brain are those internal experiences, or they are some sort of receiver/filter for those experiences or components thereof.

There are other alternatives to these two, like explanations involving QM, for example. Also, you've just said "X is Y" again without explaining the "is". If you can't translate it into E-Prime, it doesn't mean anything.

Is there a way we could devise an experiment to tell the difference?
~~ Paul

No.
 

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