Materialists......

The following link is very highly recommended to anyone genuinely interested in this.

http://www.ditext.com/russell/debate.html
You surely don't think it supports your argument?

Russell: "The difficulty of this argument is that I don't admit the idea of a necessary being and I don't admit that there is any particular meaning in calling other beings "contingent." These phrases don't for me have a significance except within a logic that I reject.

...Well, I can't find anything that they could mean. The word "necessary," it seems to me, is a useless word, except as applied to analytic propositions, not to things."
The argument is effectively over at that point, but Russell continues to indulge the guy and try to help him straighten out his concepts. He's wasting his time of course, people who've got the God-virus aren't susceptible to reason.

By the way, the following is now out of date:

Copleston: Yes, I agree, some scientists -- physicists -- are willing to allow for indetermination within a restricted field. But very many scientists are not so willing. I think that Professor Dingle, of London University, maintains that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us something about the success (or the lack of it) of the present atomic theory in correlating observations, but not about nature in itself, and many physicists would accept this view.
The vast majority of physicists now believe that quantum randomness (and thus, "uncausedness") is an inherent part of nature and does not reflect merely a lack of knowledge on our part. The Aspect experiment in the 1980's was important in establishing this to the satisfaction of most physicists.
 
No, the idea of a "necesary being" is logical nonsense.

Chris.....you are trying to dismiss with a wave of your hand something which has been and still is a very active branch of philosophy. It's called "Essentialism" and is has been discussed in great detail by people like Quine and Kripke. Some people think essentialism doesn't make sense, but they have to go to quite some lengths to prove their point. They don't just wave their hands and say "nonsense". I think there may be more meat to this topic than you are currently aware of. "Naming and Neccesity" by Kripke is one of the most important philosophical texts of the 20th century.

The whole question of why there is something rather than nothing is motivated by the fact that the existence of the universe is clearly not necesary.

Again, this isn't as simple as you make out. It is clear that the existence of any individual object is not neccesary. But it is not clear that the existence of the whole Universe is not neccesary. Bertrand Russell famously argued that just because we can apply a property like contingency to individual parts it does not follow that we can apply it to the whole. For example: A wall is made of bricks. Each brick is small, and made of brick. The property "made of brick" also applies to the whole wall. The property "is small" does not. It is not clear whether the property of "is contingent" is transferable to the whole from the parts. We do not currently know how "the whole of the universe" is related to the parts.

These are all arguments borrowed from theology, for goodness sake. Of course they are idiotic.

Chris, the whole of the theology is not idiotic. Some of it is. Most of it that you get exposed to at a site like this is. But the theology Paul Tillich, for example, is not. You are correct. I am using arguments from theology, but they are also arguments that have an impact on theological philosophy and I'd appreciate if you'd address the arguments themselves instead of trying to claim that the whole subject of theology is "idiotic". It's not as simple as that.

They are designed to arm the faithful with rhetorical devices to counter skeptical arguments and thus save their souls.

Just as the equally idiotic arguments in favour of materialism are rhetorical devices to counter metaphysical arguments and prevent the materialist from facing up to the fact that his/her position is actually untenable and illogical....

I'm amazed that you take them seriously. I thought you were smarter than that.

Well maybe you would not be so amazed if you had encountered some of the people who have explained them to me. In the last year I have taken two courses run by the most senior philosopher at my University - those two courses were metaphysics and philosophy of religion. The person who ran those courses was called David Smith and is a world authority on both these subjects, having studied them for his doctorate at Oxford.(http://www.sussex.ac.uk/philosophy/profile155814.html)

"Not taking him seriously" simply wasn't an option. He is possibly the most intelligent and well-educated person I have ever met. Many of his students are simply dumbstruck by the amount of knowledge he carries in his head. So please don't say "I thought you were smarter than that." I am nothing like as smart as Smith. Not even close.

I am not arguing from authority here. I am trying to get you to understand that not everyone who takes philosophy of religion seriously is a fool. Far from it.
 
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Sometimes that is because there is no answer: "Why did Fluffy have to die?"

~~ Paul

That question has an answer. The child may not be able to appreciate it or understand it properly, but the question is answerable. Death is neccesary in order for there to be space for new things to be born.
 
You surely don't think it supports your argument?

It certainly supports my claim that this stuff is a lot more complicated than you are making it out to be.

The argument is effectively over at that point, but Russell continues to indulge the guy and try to help him straighten out his concepts. He's wasting his time of course, people who've got the God-virus aren't susceptible to reason.

That's your intepretation of the way this exchange develops. Personally, I believe that Russell loses this debate. Other people think it is a tie. What it isn't is "simple".
 
Chris, the whole of the theology is not idiotic.

Not idiotic, but based upon the human need for purpose in all things and our curious but sometimes fun tendency to see human attributes in everything.

[/QUOTE]Just as the equally idiotic arguments in favour of materialism are rhetorical devices to counter metaphysical arguments and prevent the materialist from facing up to the fact that his/her position is actually untenable and illogical....[/QUOTE]

Tu quoque ?

"Not taking him seriously" simply wasn't an option. He is possibly the most intelligent and well-educated person I have ever met. Many of his students are simply dumbstruck by the amount of knowledge he carries in his head. So please don't say "I thought you were smarter than that." I am nothing like as smart as Smith. Not even close.

I am not arguing from authority here. I am trying to get you to understand that not everyone who takes philosophy of religion seriously is a fool. Far from it.

Unfortunately this is all based on opinion rather than fact.

JustGeoff said:
Usually when children say "Why?", they deserve an answer. Very often, it isn't supplied.

Well, often children ask meaningless questions.

JustGeoff said:
Exactly. If God exists, God neccesarily exists and cannot stop existing.

I don't see why God could'nt stop existing, even IF he is necessary.
 
That question has an answer. The child may not be able to appreciate it or understand it properly, but the question is answerable. Death is neccesary in order for there to be space for new things to be born.

But that's not the answer. That's not why things die.

The "why" things die is purely a matter of process. There is no "reason" in the human sense, as if "something" was making it happen for a purpose.
 
That question has an answer. The child may not be able to appreciate it or understand it properly, but the question is answerable. Death is neccesary in order for there to be space for new things to be born.

Evidence?
 
Ehr, what logic requires the necessary being to keep existing? Granted, some (not necessarily complex or conscious) being is necessary for the universe to begin, but once the cause-effect chain has been started, the necessary being could stop existing; it is no longer necessary.

ETA: This applies to God as well, in the role of necessary being.

Hans
 
Is it non-being>being>non-being, or the other way 'round? Tricky will need your explanation. :)
 
Geoff said:
That question has an answer. The child may not be able to appreciate it or understand it properly, but the question is answerable. Death is neccesary in order for there to be space for new things to be born.
But why my Fluffy? He wasn't taking up much space.

~~ Paul
 
Ehr, what logic requires the necessary being to keep existing?

That is what "neccesary" means, in this case. A neccessary being is a being which if it exists, cannot stop existing. If it could stop existing, then it wouldn't be neccesary, by definition. Anything which can stop existing is contingent, by definition.

Granted, some (not necessarily complex or conscious) being is necessary for the universe to begin, but once the cause-effect chain has been started, the necessary being could stop existing; it is no longer necessary.

ETA: This applies to God as well, in the role of necessary being.

Hans

You are describing a contingent God. This is taken by most people to be a contradiction in terms. If God exists, then God cannot stop existing.
 
That is what "neccesary" means, in this case. A neccessary being is a being which if it exists, cannot stop existing. If it could stop existing, then it wouldn't be neccesary, by definition. Anything which can stop existing is contingent, by definition.

Ehr, yes, I am aware of the semantics. However, the logic you have presented only requires it to be present at the start of the universe. So your necessary being is just a necessary starting condition.

You are describing a contingent God. This is taken by most people to be a contradiction in terms. If God exists, then God cannot stop existing.

I know that is what "most people" claim. And it is certainly what you claim. I ask, by which logic must it be so? For all I know God might have died creating the universe (and in fact, some people believe exactly that to be the case).

Hans

PS: Entirely irrelevant, but it irritates me: Necessary is spelled with one c and two s, according to my dictionary.
 
Ehr, yes, I am aware of the semantics. However, the logic you have presented only requires it to be present at the start of the universe. So your necessary being is just a necessary starting condition.

That would only be true if I'd presented an argument from first temporal cause, but I have specifically stated I am not doing this. I am arguing about a sustaining cause, which is critically different with respect to your comments:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument

Since the argument proceeds independent of temporal considerations, the argument does not propose a first cause in time, but rather a first or primary sustaining cause of the universe.

Sustaining causes are not like temporal causes. They are more like logical causes, and they must continue indefinately. In other words, if God (viewed as a sustaining cause) were to stop existing, then the Universe would also stop existing.
 
That would only be true if I'd presented an argument from first temporal cause, but I have specifically stated I am not doing this. I am arguing about a sustaining cause, which is critically different with respect to your comments.

So, you're suggesting that the necessary beign CONTINUES to make the universe possible ?

JustGeoff said:
Evolution could not operate if things did not die.

Agreed. But this doesn't explain WHY things die.
 

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