Materialists......

Right. What you meant to say was this:

...snip...

No I didn't I meant to say what I did say.


You meant to say that a p-zombie contradicts any system which assumes "human being" is identical to "physical properties of a human".

Nope I didn't I meant to say what I did say.


Woo-hoo, Darat. There is only one system that makes that assumption, and its materialism.
...snip...

You are wrong for instance most forms of logic I am aware of use such a definition as does maths (e.g. "if x is identical to y then y is the same as x" or "1=1 means that 1 is the same as 1)

(ETA)

Could you address what I actually said rather then what you would have liked me to have said?
 
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This appears to be the argument:

premise 1: A zombie is physically identical to a human.

premise 2: A zombie is missing some "mental attribute."

conclusion 1a: The mental attribute is physical.

conclusion 1b: The mental attribute is not physical.

So what are we asking? Are we asking which conclusion is correct under physicalism?

~~ Paul

Premise 2 was wrong. It should be "A zombie entirely lacks mental attributes."

We are asking:

1) Are zombies conceptually possible? Answer: Yes.

Why are we asking this? Because we are establishing that our current conceptual scheme allows us to think of minds and brains as not neccesarily connected. You've said as much yourself - that the brute fact that we are aware of anything at all is going to require something special from neuroscience to explain it. "Nobody says it's going to be easy". Think of it like this: If it were easy to explain why minds are brains are neccesarily connected, then do you think it would still be easy to imagine a zombie? The answer is "no". If we understood the nature of the neccessary connection and if we could see it intellectually - if it was "transparent" to us - then zombies would appear conceptually impossible.

2) Are real zombies actually possible? Answer: Almost certainly no.
 
Geoff said:
Premise 2 was wrong. It should be "A zombie entirely lacks mental attributes."
Nope, I don't think so. I put "mental attribute" in quotes just so we don't make any assumption about what sort of attribute it is. It's just some attribute of a normal human being. I suppose you could define a subset of all attributes and say the zombie is missing that set, but you still can't say the set is all the mental attributes, unless you're just using "mental attribute" as an arbitrary label.

1) Are zombies conceptually possible? Answer: Yes.
If you're asking whether there is a concept called "zombie," then fine. Is that what you're asking?

2) Are real zombies actually possible? Answer: Almost certainly no.
Sure, but what about:

1a) Are zombies logically possible?

To answer this, I think we have to assume a metaphysic, no?

~~ Paul
 
I do not accept this premise. Please define characteristic.

Let's use "predicate" instead:

"The predicate is that part of a sentence which is not the subject but which gives information about the subject. So, in the sentence Clare went to school, 'Clare' is the subject and 'went to school' is the predicate."

What does it mean to ask whether zombies can logically exist without assuming some metaphysic?

It is an examination of whether their existence is compatible with our current conceptual scheme. We can ask whether the parents of the number 327 can exist. Do we need to assume some metaphysic? Can the parents of the number 327 exist under materialism? Can they exist under idealism?

Why bother introducing an assumed metaphysic at all? The parents of the number 327 aren't even conceptually possible, let alone possible in reality. Zombies probably aren't possible in reality, but there is no conceptual problem in imagining one. Instead, it's very easy. The only reason some people here a saying that it is hard is that they have insisted on assuming their conclusion is true before they approach the conceptual issue. They are trying to claim they can't imagine a zombie, but the reasons they give are either based on empirical data or on assumptions of materialism. Both responses are invalid because they have nothing to do with the basic conceptual possibility of p-zombies.

Doesn't the logic depend on the premises of the metaphysic?

~~ Paul

[size=+4]NO[/size].
 
Belz, if this is the level of the comments you are going to leave in this thread, I may stop responding to you. At a critical point in the argument, you have stopped actually thinking about the answer supplied to you and started making irrelevant comments. It does not matter whether or not they exist.

It indeed doesn't seem to matter at all.

And what do you think your comment about Yin and Yang was if it wasn't an attempt at clever word play instead of trying to think about the interdependence of those two concepts?

Geoff. It seems you have a slight misunderstanding of what is considered a good supporting argument. If you admit that the Yin and the Yang are non-existent, then to use them as an example of two things that can both be different and yet the same is pointless.

But it seems every time I call you on something like that you claim that I'm ignoring you.

If I'd be ignoring your arguments I wouldn't respond at all.
 
And these a priori reasons are... ?
(ed. or would now be a good point to start a new thread?)

From the Nagel essay....

We do not at present possess the conceptual equipment to understand how subjective and physical features could both be essential aspects of a single entity or process.

Suppose, as seems likely, that I taste the smoke of my cigar when and only when my brain is in a certain physical state. What gets in the way of the thought that the experiential state of which I am introspectively aware is the physical state? The problem lies in the lack of any conceivable internal connection between a modification of my subjective point of view and a modification of the physico-chemical activity of my brain. The two may correspond extensionally as exactly as you like, but identity requires more than that. If they are the same state, it must be impossible for the one to exist without the other. And while we may have good empirical reasons to believe that that is true, the understanding of such an impossibility requires
that the necessity of the connection between the two become intellectually transparent to us. In the case of conscious states and physiological states, it isn't just that we don't see such a necessary connection: it seems in advance that a necessary connection between two such different things is unimaginable. They seem logically unrelated. It is very different from trying to imagine the possibility of a physico-chemical analysis of embryonic development, before one has the slightest inkling of what the analysis might be. In that case we can nevertheless understand the possibility in the abstract: there are no grounds for ruling it out a priori, since we know in general terms what it is to exhaustively analyze a large scale process into its microscopic or submicroscopic components. But that model will not help
us with the mind and the brain. We are entitled to identify a familiar physical phenomenon like fire with a theoretically described process at the atomic level because the macroscopic properties of fire, including its causes and effects, can be derived from the microscopic account -- can be
seen to be necessitated by it. The chemical analysis of fire and air reveals, for example, that it is a necessary truth that a fire confined to a small, airtight space will quickly go out. But we cannot see how a detailed account of what is going on in the brain could exhaustively explain the taste
of a cigar -- not even if we could see how it explained all the physical effects of such an experience. So long as this explanatory gap remains, the identification of the states remains problematic.

This does seem to call for some revision in our way of conceiving of mind, or matter, or both. The difficulty is to do this without denying what is in front of your nose. What we need is not a reductionist or eliminative revision but an expansionist one. By this I mean a conception that will permit subjective points of view to have an objective physical character in themselves.
The reason such an expansion does not seem to me out of the question is that it doesn't involve a contradiction with the essential nature of subjective experience. Our problem is that there is no room for a necessary connection with physiology in the space of possible development defined by the concept of mind. But that does not rule out the possibility of a successor concept of mind which will both preserve the essential features of the original and be open to the discovery of such connections. This kind of thing happens all the time in the course of scientific history, as with the concepts of sound, or element, or species, or space, or number. A new concept is developed to talk about the same things as the old, one that includes most of the features of the old concept but puts them in a relation to one another and to other features that is new, and that makes it possible to see or explore further connections.

Without such an expanded conception of the mental there is no prospect of overcoming the explanatory gap.
 
Could you address what I actually said rather then what you would have liked me to have said?

What you actually said was just wrong.

"The assumption is implicit in the idea that something can be identical to a human being but not be a human being."

is wrong.

The assumption is that something can be PHYSICALLY identical to a human being, but not a human being.
 
BTW,

I will not be starting any new threads. If somebody wants to split a thread off this one, then they can do it themselves.
 
What you actually said was just wrong.

"The assumption is implicit in the idea that something can be identical to a human being but not be a human being."

is wrong.

The assumption is that something can be PHYSICALLY identical to a human being, but not a human being.

Nope, please go back to what I posted and address what I actually posted. Please don't be closed minded about it - just look at it - take some time out from posting if necessary so you can address what I posted.
 
Geoff said:
Let's use "predicate" instead:

"The predicate is that part of a sentence which is not the subject but which gives information about the subject. So, in the sentence Clare went to school, 'Clare' is the subject and 'went to school' is the predicate."
So you're claiming that it's obvious we can distinguish physical and mental predicates. I'm not sure it is.

Geoff said:
It is an examination of whether their existence is compatible with our current conceptual scheme. We can ask whether the parents of the number 327 can exist. Do we need to assume some metaphysic? Can the parents of the number 327 exist under materialism? Can they exist under idealism?
I asked about logical existence, not conceptual existence. Whether they can conceptually exist is just a question of whether we have defined "parent of a number."
 
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Nope, I don't think so.

Then we are in trouble.....

I put "mental attribute" in quotes just so we don't make any assumption about what sort of attribute it is.

Right....the reason we called it "mental attribute" was to identify it as mental. Now, you want to call it "mental attribute" but put it in quotes so as "not to make any assumptions". Paul....this is silly. This is exactly the same as lifegazer starting a thread about ~things~. It's a thing, but it's in tilda's so he can't be held to ransom about the thingness of the thing. You want to put "mental" in quotes so you can't be held to account about the mentalness of the attribute. This isn't going to work.

If you're asking whether there is a concept called "zombie," then fine. Is that what you're asking?

Good. So it's not like the parents of the number 327.

Sure, but what about:

1a) Are zombies logically possible?

To answer this, I think we have to assume a metaphysic, no?

~~ Paul

No. I think we only need empirical science and a bit of common sense.
 
Nope, please go back to what I posted and address what I actually posted. Please don't be closed minded about it - just look at it - take some time out from posting if necessary so you can address what I posted.

I just did. Any more repeat posts from you will be ignored.
 
And if I unpack what you mean by "evidence", how far do you I will have to go before I find an assumption that materialism is true is critically underpinning the argument?

You are trying to use empirical evidence to justify feeding ontological assumptions into metaphysical arguments. And you think it is me who is talking bollocks?

"Damn, I hate that evidence."

JustGeoff said:
Oh my God, yet another one! Is there a line of thirty more materialists behind you, each one of them incapable of thinking about the logic without assuming his conclusion is true, each one of them ready to falsely accuse me of the logical crime THEY are committing????

You might want to step out of Interesting Ian mode.

Assumption: Consciousness is physical.

OK? Without THAT assumption, that is YOUR assumption, then there is no contradiction between 1 and 2. I do not need to assume my conclusion to make 1 and 2 compatible. I simply need to stop you from assuming yours. Do you understand the difference?

Of course! But if you make no assumption whatsoever, there can BE no conclusion.

Premise : Conciousness is physical.

As soon as you are denied the right to assume your conclusion is true, your position collapses.

That might be nicely true, if not for that pesky evidence.

JustGeoff said:
If you do not asssume that consciousness is physical, you must be assuming that it is non-physical.

This is a fallacy. It is logically equivalent to claiming that If I do not assume that John is a bacheolor, I must be assuming that he isn't a bachelor. There is a middle that has been excluded illegitimately: the possility of not assuming anything at all about Johns marital status.

I understand that. But you are FAR from NOT assuming anything, Geoff.

set H=the set of all physical characteristics of a human (NOTE: No assumptions about consciousness have been made. Can you do it?)

I am betting at this point, most of you will say "No, we can't."

Why not?

Hummm... because we have to be able to understand what H includes before we can reach any conclusion ?

The only reason you think that it does is because you have already assumed that consciousness must be physical.

Only YOU seem to think that this assumption is unsupported. And YOU assume that it MUSN'T be physical. It's, again, some non-random and yet non-deterministic, non-existent and yet non-non-existent, non-different and yet non-similar neutral "stuff" that we can neither describe nor show evidence for.
 
Lifegazer

From your OP.

M1: "subjective experiences and brain processes are one and the same thing".
M2: "I cannot tell the difference between subjective experiences and brain processes. They are identical, and indiscernable.".

You say M1 is acceptable whereas M2 is not. Yet M1 reduces so-called subjective experience to brain processes, which means that M1 = M2. Each statement says the same thing using different words.

No they do not. One of them claims that there seem to be two of them, but we have good reason to believe they are somehow one thing. The other one denies that there even seems to be two of them. The first is reductionism. The second is either insanity or intellectual dishonesty.

Dualism is not credible either. This means that the only way to attack the materialist position is to argue the non-reality of matter (brains) itself.

Any chance you could supply some premises, and argument? I know it is a bit much to ask you.....

But thanks for coming along and demonstrating that we do indeed have one insane eliminativist idealist on the board. A nice compliment to all the insane eliminativist materialists.

Your position is every bit as stupid as theirs is, lifegazer. You are arguing the non-reality of brains, they for the non-reality of minds.

The only realist around here is me.
 
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Geoff said:
Right....the reason we called it "mental attribute" was to identify it as mental. Now, you want to call it "mental attribute" but put it in quotes so as "not to make any assumptions". Paul....this is silly. This is exactly the same as lifegazer starting a thread about ~things~. It's a thing, but it's in tilda's so he can't be held to ransom about the thingness of the thing. You want to put "mental" in quotes so you can't be held to account about the mentalness of the attribute. This isn't going to work.
I put it in quotes because we have no way of defining what the mental attributes are. Your definition consists of "we don't have any trouble distinguishing mental attributes from physical ones." That's it. You have no concrete definition of the set H* - H.

No. I think we only need empirical science and a bit of common sense.
To determine whether a p-zombie is logical? I would expect that to be a matter of logic.

~~ Paul
 
So you're claiming that it's obvious we can distinguish physical and mental predicates. I'm not sure it is.

So you are back to claiming you can't distingiush between brain processes (the physical component of the mind-brain complex) and conscious experiences (the mental component of the mind-brain complex)?

Try to provide an example of a predicate which isn't obviously mental, isn't obviously physical and isn't obviously a combined concept itself (which can be broken down into physical and mental just as easily).

I asked about logical existence, not conceptual existence. Whether they can conceptually exist is just a question of whether we have defined "parent of a number."

We cannot sensibly define such a thing even if we wanted to. Numbers cannot have parents. It's conceptual nonsense.
 
JustGeoff said:
We can depend on neither of these things. Assumptions are BANNED and empirical evidence is irrelevant, since it can say nothing on the relative merits of materialism, idealism, dualism and neutral monism.

Well that's swell for you because that leaves only faith!
 
Where? All I can see is two responses both of them attempting to address something I hadn't posted?

Then you didn't check carefully enough.

You posted this:

"The assumption is implicit in the idea that something can be identical to a human being but not be a human being. "

I responded to it about 7 posts ago.
 

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