Materialists......

It does if the conclusion of the argument spins on the value of the "if".
No you are wrong, personal belief in a matter is not relevant in a logical argument.
Which line do you think contains the assumption? Let's take it one line at a time:

"1. A p-zombie has all the physical characteristics of a human being."

No assumption that consciousness is not physical in line 1. It merely states that p-zombies are physically indistinguishable from normal humans.

"2. A p-zombie is not conscious".


No assumption that consciousness is not physical in line 2 either. It merely states that p-zombies are not conscious.

If there are only two lines and it wasn't assumed in line 1 and wasn't assumed in line 2 then it wasn't assumed at all. What is the case is that once you have accepted lines 1 and 2 then there is a potential contradiction with one of the following:

"3a. Consciousness is physical".
"3b. Consciousness is not physical."

If you accept lines 1 and 2 then line 3a is going to cause a contradiction and 3b is not. You appear to think that this is the same as assuming that 3b is true, yes?
Yes, it is. The rules of logic say it is. Go and show what you have just written to one of your lecturers.


Again, set T=the set of all physical characteristics of a human, set T=a p-zombie and a1 is consciousness. So we have:

1. The set S contains all the members of the set T
2. The set S does not contain a1
3. Therefore T does not contain a1

So, using the same logic:

1. The set of p-prime numbers contains all the members of the set of prime numbers
2. The set of p-prime numbers does not contain the number 7
3. Therefore 7 is not a prime number.

The exact same logic and I have just used it to prove that 7 is not a prime number. That is why assuming your conclusion is considered a fallacy. If you allowed that as a valid construction then you could prove anything

The only valid way to defend materialism is to deny that the word "mind" refers to anything.
Apparently the only way to find a flaw in materialism is to deny that the rules of logic exist.
 
Robin said:
Pretty much what I have been saying all along.

I originally took Geoff to task for claiming that materialism was implicit in science
When?????

I absolutely did NOT claim this, at any point. Indeed, I have spent a considerable amount of time accusing other people of getting science confused with materialism.
You absolutely did. Right here in the OP:
JustGeoff said:
Materialism (or physicalism, doesn't make much difference which) is a worldview which treats the external physical world as the only reality. Nearly all of modern science implicitly works within this framework,...
Seems you got it confused too. When I challenged you on this, (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1685227#post1685227) you did not defend yourself, simply linked me to an unrelated book.
And Kant said that existence is not a predicate. You do not add anything to the concept of something by saying it exists. There is no difference between imagining an apple, imagining a non-existent apple and imagining a real apple.
And in fact it was in reading Kant that Mach first realised that the concept of the "thing in itself" was superfluous, so you could say that Kant was a precursor of Logical Positivism and Physicalism too.
Science is a model of the behaviour of physical reality.
Except that Mach, and Hawking would disagree with you. Einstein would highly qualify the statement. According to Hawking models predict observations, not reality.
 
No you are wrong, personal belief in a matter is not relevant in a logical argument.

Yes, it is. The rules of logic say it is. Go and show what you have just written to one of your lecturers.

Is that some sort of argument-from-authority-by-proxy, because it won't wash. If you think what I wrote was wrong, then you have to tell me what is wrong with it. You have not done so. You have merely declared I am wrong on the basis of an imaginary argument from authority.

What is actually wrong with my explanation?

Again, set T=the set of all physical characteristics of a human, set T=a p-zombie and a1 is consciousness.

Not a good start. Two different definitions of the set T. Please have another go.

So we have:

1. The set S contains all the members of the set T
2. The set S does not contain a1
3. Therefore T does not contain a1

Since I don't know what S is, I can't comment on this.

So, using the same logic:

1. The set of p-prime numbers contains all the members of the set of prime numbers
2. The set of p-prime numbers does not contain the number 7
3. Therefore 7 is not a prime number.

What logic did you use to get from 1 to 2? :con2:

(2) doesn't follow from (1). Simple as that. Now explain what this has got to do with the zombie argument?

The exact same logic and I have just used it to prove that 7 is not a prime number.

Yes, but that logic was completely fallacious. You haven't explained what it has got to do with the zombie argument. Please try again, this time without making mistakes, and making sure you actually model the p-zombie argument, because you last attempt bore no resemblance to it.

That is why assuming your conclusion is considered a fallacy. If you allowed that as a valid construction then you could prove anything

But that wasn't the construction I used..... :con2:

Apparently the only way to find a flaw in materialism is to deny that the rules of logic exist.

Erm, try again Robin.......
 
Great. You understood everything about that but my point.

I understand you perfectly, Mercutio, I just think you're wrong. :)

Eliminativism is about the elimination of a word, not an experience. The trouble is, it isn't actually valid to eliminate this particular word because this particular word IS "experience".

Hello?


You seem to be saying that materialists must deny that sunsets exist, to the point of saying that the orange and purple hues don't exist, that clouds cannot glow, shafts of sunlight don't illuminate mountaintops, that crowds of people stop what they are doing and look to the west at nothing at all.

I'm not saying that at all. All of those things happen. Sunsets happen. They just aren't actually "the sun going down". I can replace "the sun going down" with "the earth turning" and still make sense of the situation. I cannot replace "mind" with "brain process" and make sense of the situation. Until you can explain how this is possible, I'm not going to believe it. You can if you like. Blind faith is not my cup of tea. ;)

Eliminative does not mean that we eliminate the experience, merely that we explain it differently.

No, Merc, you don't explain it at all. You promise that one fine day an explanation will be forthcoming. I don't buy it. It's that simple.

We are denying nothing at all; we are simply not making up more than what is there. Sunsets do exist.

Sure, they just aren't "sun sets". You are dead right that we don't eliminate the experience of the setting sun. But you aren't talking about replacing one physical event with another physical event. You are talking about replacing mental things with material things. That is a whole new ball game. If you want to make the rather extraordinary claim that science can overcome the mind-body problem then you are going to need more than promises that a future neuroscience can make sense of it. You are going to need actual evidence. You don't have any and don't believe you ever will have any. Therefore I do not believe that the word mind can be eliminated.

It is experience itself that you are trying to eliminate. You seem to have forgotten this little fact. You aren't eliminating a word for one component of your experiences of a physical reality. You are trying to eliminate the one word which refers to ALL OF THEM!

I hope to watch one in a few hours. What is eliminated is the faulty prescientific baggage that went with the word.

Trouble is, in the case of mind, there is nothing but "prescientific baggage". You don't have any scientific alternative. All you have is promises. You can keep them. I don't need them, thankyou. :)

By definition. Not by evidence. Matter is perhaps physical (but I don't know if hammy will agree with that), but mind is fictional (I mean that in the technically defined use of the word, as in explanatory fiction). You are claiming experience as bedrock. It is as if (and actually, it appears that you do this) you took the etymology of "sunset" as bedrock, then denied the existence of that which we all call sunsets simply because the evidence disagrees with that bedrock. You need to start questioning the assumptions you take as foundations.

Err.....the etymology of sunset was indeed the bedrock of the origin of that word. That was the prescientific baggage, remember? :oldroll:

Boy, you really do not understand the sunset analogy.

Do you think that if you say that enough times it will magically become true?

For the billionth time, eliminativism is about eliminating a word, not an experience. The trouble is, you can't eliminate that word because you've got nothing to replace it with. You can replace "sunset" with "the earth turning". You cannot replace "mind" with anything at all. That's not good enough. I do not take suspect claims to be the truth on nothing but blind faith.


I think I probably understand it better than you do.

That's pretty bad news for me, because you don't actually understand it all. :)

Can we have a debate instead of a p*ss*ng contest, please?


If an eliminativist could account for your private experiences--each one you tick off, one at a time--would you still hold out for "but you have not yet accounted for mind"?

Sure. He can't.
 
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Robin, my position is that minds cannot exist without brains. But that does not mean that it is not conceptually/logically possible that a brain can exist without a mind.
What does that mean?

1. JustGeoff's position is that minds cannot exist without brains.
2. The materialist position is that minds cannot exist without brains.

But you are saying that the p-zombie argument refutes materialism, but doesn't refute your position? Explain.
But you cannot distinguish between a molecule of H20 and a molecule of water, can you?
No, I cannot distinguish between a molecule of H20 and a molecule of H20 any more than I can distinguish between a brain process and a brain process
You gave two very good examples. It is impossible to construct a logically coherent "set of the prime numbers" without it including the number 7. It is equally impossible to have a molecule of H20 which is not a molecule of water or a lake of H20 which is not a lake of water. But you can explain quite clearly WHY this is the case.
Well I can't, a physicist could.

But science knew the structure of a water molecule before it could explain the precise relationship between the structure and properties of the individual molecule and the properties of fluid.

So there was a time when nobody could explain why a bunch of H20 molecules displayed the properties of water. But water behaved the same and had the same properties before and after we could explain why this was the case.

So clearly the "ability to explain why" is an irrelevant criteria.
You cannot distinguish between water and H20. You cannot distinguish between the number 7 and the fifth member of the set of prime numbers.
But you can distinguish between the properties of an individual water molecule and the properties of water. They are completely different. You can distinguish between the properties of the number 7 and the properties of the set of prime numbers.

Remember, it was your claim that "x can be distinguished from y" implies "x can exist without y". I merely showed that this logic is inadequate.

Are you now amending this to "x can be distinguished from y" implies "x can exist without y" just as long as we are not aware of any reason why not?

If so, you will still need to demonstrate why this is the case.
 
Geoff said:
No, Merc, you don't explain it at all. You promise that one fine day an explanation will be forthcoming. I don't buy it. It's that simple.
Geoff, dude, buddy, you aren't explaining it either. You promise that one fine day QM will do so. No one yet has a complete explanation.

~~ Paul
 
What does that mean?

1. JustGeoff's position is that minds cannot exist without brains.
2. The materialist position is that minds cannot exist without brains.

It means you have obviously never understood the position I am defending. My position entails that without a brain, there cannot be a mind. Materialism also entails this. What's the problem? Did you think I claimed minds can exist without brains? Because I never said anything of the sort.

But you are saying that the p-zombie argument refutes materialism, but doesn't refute your position? Explain.

My position allows for reality to appear dualistic from our point of view. Zombies only cause a problem for materialism because it has no way of coping with the apparently dualistic nature of our experience of reality. It claims that reality is monistic but offers no explanation at all of what mind is - it simply claims it is a brain process and expects people to believe this. My position is completely different to this because it fully accepts that reality appears dualistic. Therefore it is immune to zombie arguments designed to establish that reality appears dualistic without actually being resigned to cartesian dualism.

No, I cannot distinguish between a molecule of H20 and a molecule of H20 any more than I can distinguish between a brain process and a brain process

Then your example was invalid.

But science knew the structure of a water molecule before it could explain the precise relationship between the structure and properties of the individual molecule and the properties of fluid.

So there was a time when nobody could explain why a bunch of H20 molecules displayed the properties of water. But water behaved the same and had the same properties before and after we could explain why this was the case.

What difference does any of this make?

But you can distinguish between the properties of an individual water molecule and the properties of water. They are completely different.

So what?

You can distinguish between the properties of the number 7 and the properties of the set of prime numbers.

So what?

None of these things correspond to the mind/body problem.

Remember, it was your claim that "x can be distinguished from y" implies "x can exist without y". I merely showed that this logic is inadequate.

I never made that claim. I never claimed that minds can exist without matter. I said we can distinguish between mind and matter.

I wonder why I bother sometimes. I've been discussing this stuff with you for months now, and you still don't seem to have a clue what I actually believe.

Are you now amending this to "x can be distinguished from y" implies "x can exist without y" just as long as we are not aware of any reason why not?

I'm not even saying "X can exist without Y". I simply never said anything of the sort.
 
Geoff said:
For the billionth time, eliminativism is about eliminating a word, not an experience. The trouble is, you can't eliminate that word because you've got nothing to replace it with. You can replace "sunset" with "the earth turning". You cannot replace "mind" with anything at all. That's not good enough. I do not take suspect claims to be the truth on nothing but blind faith.
Just eliminating one word? I thought we had to eliminate words like redness and fear, too. And why do we have to eliminate these words? Because people insist on inferring dualism from them.

Well, you're screwed, too. People are going to infer dualism from your use of mind. But you're not a dualist. So what word are you replacing mind with? You have to say something like "the apparently dualistic mental half of neutral reality" or something clunky like that. And it's a circular definition, to boot.

It's repeat theatre all over again.

~~ Paul
 
This is still going on?

At least I see some details of what Geoff is trying to say, but it still sounds a little silly. Why can't we compare the fact that a program can be distinguished from the hardware of the computer and the fact that conciousness can be distinguished from the hardware of our mind? Sure they have different characteristics, but for the purposes of the comparison, they are irrelevent.

Also, you just tossed in quantum mechanics as a possible explanation of conciousness? (That sentence may not be accurate. If not, explain where I'm mistaken in my interpretation of this.) Listen to your own argument and you should see that that contradicts everything you just said. That is to say, if you reduce conciousness to quantum fluctuations are you not engaging in the same "mistake" that breaking it down into brain processes is to you?

And p-zombies are an assumption of all assumptions. You attempt to conceptualize a human that lacks self awareness but otherwise acts exactly the same. Your mistake is seeing this p-zombie "from the outside". Since you aren't actually experiencing "what it is like to be this thing" you can't ever actually claim it lacks awareness. Of course just having a bunch of sensory input is possible, in that sense talking with a human is no different than talking to a wall. However, the problem is you can't stop there in your analogy. You have to somehow actually create a mechanism by which something can be giving all these reponses without being aware. Get something like that where you can say "and THAT is why it is not aware" and you have something. You could do it as simply as saying "but it lacks a soul" but that's hardly very explanitory. Science doesn't need to explain much, but if you are going to go as far as to state something like "hey, there's a conceptual possibility of something that is and is not all at once" you better have some way to show that to be the case.

As I said earlier, you can only imagine the talking TO such a being and then just claiming "but it isn't aware" (which doesn't sound at all like actually being able to conceptualize it fully), it's impossible to imagine the perspective OF the being, just as it is impossible to imagine the perspective of the void. The fact that you can't imagine it doesn't say much, but when someone says "I can imagine it so it is at least conceptually possible" they better actually be able to conceptualize it and not just concieve of the thing next to it. In the case of an apple, it's easy enough, but you are making a direct claim about it's mental capabilities, so you better be conceptualizing that accuratly. If I imagine an apple that can't think, it's easy enough because the apple also doesn't give any signs it is doing it in my conceptualizing of it. If I suddenly imagine an apple that gives all the signs of being aware but isn't actually aware, then that's meaningless. I might as well have an apple that gives all the signs of being red but isn't actually red at all. Also meaningless.

So really, your description in and of itself is not actually evidence that such a creature is logically possible. I'll finish by just saying this. When you say "science has no way to explain the actual state of being aware because we can discern that from brain processes" it is like if I said "science has no way to explain the actual state of emitting gravity because all it can do is model exactly the way gravity behaves but not why it is that wya to begin with" or "science has no way to explain the nature of something being red because of p-apples which I can think of having all the qualities of redness but aren't actually red, they are truly colorless but only give all the apparent signs of being red". That might be the case, but that's hardly evidence of it because the statement is silly. It seems more than enough to say "conciousness occurs due to brain processes, they can easily be considered to be the brain processes without any more thought into it".
 
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A p-zombie is something which looks and behaves exactly like a normal human being but which entirely lacks consciousness/mind where this means "subjective experiences".
So presumably "exactly" means that we could examine a p-zombie minutely - dissection, brain scan etc and would never find any difference? Right?

So by stating that p-zombies are possible you are stating, for example, that if we were suddenly to be deprived of our qualia then it is possible that we would continue to behave exactly the same as before when we had qualia.

So if a p-zombie were possible then our qualia would have absolutely no bearing or influence on our behaviour - in other words epiphenomanalism would be true.

If you accept the implications above then I accept the definition. Now what is the precise reasoning that a p-zombie is possible?
 
Just eliminating one word? I thought we had to eliminate words like redness and fear, too.

Taken in their mental context (fear has physiological components), you do. "Mind" is a word which denotes the set of all of them.

And why do we have to eliminate these words? Because people insist on inferring dualism from them.

Paul, it is impossible not to infer dualism from them. I don't understand why you think it is the fault of unspecified "people".

Well, you're screwed, too.

Oh, we're all screwed. Seen the price of oil lately? :D

People are going to infer dualism from your use of mind. But you're not a dualist. So what word are you replacing mind with? You have to say something like "the apparently dualistic mental half of neutral reality" or something clunky like that.

If that's what it takes to make sense, yes.

And it's a circular definition, to boot.

Not sure what you mean by this.

It's repeat theatre all over again.

~~ Paul

Why?
 
Geoff said:
My position allows for reality to appear dualistic from our point of view. Zombies only cause a problem for materialism because it has no way of coping with the apparently dualistic nature of our experience of reality.
Zombies are incoherent under materialism. How is that a problem?

It claims that reality is monistic but offers no explanation at all of what mind is - it simply claims it is a brain process and expects people to believe this. My position is completely different to this because it fully accepts that reality appears dualistic. Therefore it is immune to zombie arguments designed to establish that reality appears dualistic without actually being resigned to cartesian dualism.
Yet it still offers no explanation at all of what mind is. Imagine that.

I never made that claim. I never claimed that minds can exist without matter. I said we can distinguish between mind and matter.
Distinguish how? I presume you mean we can conceive of a distinction. Now how does that lead to the logical possibility of zombies? Could I see the derivation?

Yeah, but there's degrees of wrongness...
Could you link us to the sites that describe the projects to determine how it is that QM gives rise to consciousness? There should be gobs of them, since you're righter than we are.

~~ Paul
 
This is still going on?

At least I see some details of what Geoff is trying to say, but it still sounds a little silly. Why can't we compare the fact that a program can be distinguished from the hardware of the computer and the fact that conciousness can be distinguished from the hardware of our mind?

Because the analogy does not work:

Hardware is to software what Brains are to.....

A) Minds?

or

B) Brain processes?

The answer is rather obviously (B), not (A). The fact we can distinguish between a brain and a brain processes, and understand it, isn't going to help explain the difference between brain processes and minds.


Sure they have different characteristics, but for the purposes of the comparison, they are irrelevent.

Its a false comparison. The analogy doesn't work.

Also, you just tossed in quantum mechanics as a possible explanation of conciousness?

What I said was considerably more complicated than that.

(That sentence may not be accurate. If not, explain where I'm mistaken in my interpretation of this.) Listen to your own argument and you should see that that contradicts everything you just said. That is to say, if you reduce conciousness to quantum fluctuations are you not engaging in the same "mistake" that breaking it down into brain processes is to you?

No. QM involves disputes about what is meant by "observation" or "observer" or "collapse of the wave-function". At this point QM interfaces with metaphysics is a way neuroscience does not. That is why Penrose is interested in neuroscience. He thinks he's got a missing piece of their puzzle, and I think he's right.
 
I cannot replace "mind" with "brain process" and make sense of the situation. Until you can explain how this is possible, I'm not going to believe it. You can if you like. Blind faith is not my cup of tea. ;)

This is ironic, coming from the person who believes...
The subject has no means of storing or exchanging information. Its only means of affecting physical reality, including brain states, is via loading the quantum dice (which is effectively what is happening during entanglement also). It acts by altering the probability of a given quantum outcome in just such a way as to create macrosopic differences in the physical world.
... based on theories that are either rebutted (Penrose's microtubule theory) or untestable (Stapp's). If that is not an instance of blind faith, then I do not know what is.
 
Geoff said:
Paul, it is impossible not to infer dualism from them. I don't understand why you think it is the fault of unspecified "people".
I don't infer dualism from them. Because mental things are not just like physical objects doesn't mean that I need to make a metaphysical distinction. You don't make a metaphysical distinction, either. You just feel obliged to unite mental and physical things with some sort of nonexistent glue, because otherwise they would splinter apart into metaphysically distinct existents. It's as if you can't decide whether they are metaphysically distinct or not.

If that's what it takes to make sense, yes.
Then I can say "the apparently dualistic mental aspects of brain activity."

We're down to arguing whether "mental things" need velcroing to "material things."

~~ Paul
 
So presumably "exactly" means that we could examine a p-zombie minutely - dissection, brain scan etc and would never find any difference? Right?

That's the idea. Physically indistinguishable.

So by stating that p-zombies are possible you are stating, for example, that if we were suddenly to be deprived of our qualia then it is possible that we would continue to behave exactly the same as before when we had qualia.

Surely exactly the same claim is made by people who deny we have qualia as well as eliminativists, epiphenomenalists and property dualists. All of these groups of people deny mental causality. I, for one, do not.

So if a p-zombie were possible then our qualia would have absolutely no bearing or influence on our behaviour - in other words epiphenomanalism would be true.

That probably does follow, yes.

If you accept the implications above then I accept the definition. Now what is the precise reasoning that a p-zombie is possible?

It is explained very clearly in the Nagel paper:

http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/1172/conceiving.pdf

That is not to say that I understand just how the first person and the third form two logically inseparable aspects of a single concept -- only that they do. This applies to all conscious mental states and events, and their properties. They are subjective, not in the sense that they are the subjects of a purely first-person vocabulary, but in the sense that they can be accurately described only by concepts in which nonobservational first-person and observational third-person attributions are logically inseparable. Such states are modifications of the point of view of an individual subject.
The problem, then, is how something that is an aspect or element of an individual's subjective point of view could also be a physiologically describable event in the brain -- the kind of thing which, considered under that description, involves no point of view and no distinctively immediate first-person attribution at all. I believe that as a matter of fact you can't have one without the other, and furthermore that the powerful intuition that it is conceivable that an intact and normally functioning physical human organism could be a completely unconscious zombie is an illusion -- due to the limitations of our understanding. Nevertheless those limitations are real. We do not at present possess the conceptual equipment to understand how subjective and physical features could both be essential aspects of a single entity or process.

Suppose, as seems likely, that I taste the smoke of my cigar when and only when my brain is in a certain physical state. What gets in the way of the thought that the experiential state of which I am introspectively aware is the physical state? The problem lies in the lack of any conceivable internal connection between a modification of my subjective point of view and a modification of the physico-chemical activity of my brain. The two may correspond extensionally as exactly as you like, but identity requires more than that. If they are the same state, it must be impossible for the one to exist without the other. And while we may have good empirical reasons to believe that that is true, the understanding of such an impossibility requires that the necessity of the connection between the two become intellectually transparent to us. In the case of conscious states and physiological states, it isn't just that we don't see such a necessary connection: it seems in advance that a necessary connection between two such different things is unimaginable. They seem logically unrelated.

It is very different from trying to imagine the possibility of a physico-chemical analysis of embryonic development, before one has the slightest inkling of what the analysis might be. In that case we can nevertheless understand the possibility in the abstract: there are no grounds for ruling it out a priori, since we know in general terms what it is to exhaustively analyze a largescale process into its microscopic or submicroscopic components. But that model will not help us with the mind and the brain. We are entitled to identify a familiar physical phenomenon like fire with a theoretically described process at the atomic level because the macroscopic properties of fire, including its causes and effects, can be derived from the microscopic account -- can be seen to be necessitated by it. The chemical analysis of fire and air reveals, for example, that it is a necessary truth that a fire confined to a small, airtight space will quickly go out. But we cannot see how a detailed account of what is going on in the brain could exhaustively explain the taste of a cigar -- not even if we could see how it explained all the physical effects of such an experience. So long as this explanatory gap remains, the identification of the states remains problematic.

This does seem to call for some revision in our way of conceiving of mind, or matter, or both. The difficulty is to do this without denying what is in front of your nose.

I should add that the above paper was essential on my reading list for philosophical foundations of cognitive science. This paper was listed as the best for giving an over-all background of the whole context of the arguments we covered during that course. It is very clear and very helpful.
 
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I don't infer dualism from them. Because mental things are not just like physical objects doesn't mean that I need to make a metaphysical distinction.

Then I've no idea what position you are defending. "Paulism"?

You don't make a metaphysical distinction, either.

Yes I do. Yin is not Yang.

You just feel obliged to unite mental and physical things with some sort of nonexistent glue, because otherwise they would splinter apart into metaphysically distinct existents.

Yes.

It's as if you can't decide whether they are metaphysically distinct or not.

No, not really.

Then I can say "the apparently dualistic mental aspects of brain activity."

We're down to arguing whether "mental things" need velcroing to "material things."

~~ Paul

We are talking about how they are inter-related, sure.
 

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