Materialists......

OK, fair enough. Put Dennett in there instead. He's a philosopher, but he thinks like a scientist
My first reaction is to say that this is a compliment. But Dennett is one of the few philosophers who could shake me out of that perhaps rather prejudiced view. I'm pretty sure that what he does isn't science, but he works in an area of philosophy where scientific experiments and discoveries constitute an important part of the data to be made sense of and, furthermore, where the science is rapidly advancing. He's not afraid to take science seriously, even if it earns him the scorn of other more traditionally-minded colleagues.

and does not appear to take any notice of Kant. He just starts from the claim that "it is reasonable to start from the commonsense 3rd-person view on reality", as if Kant had never lived.
Well, he argues his case a lot more convincing than you with your "monism" that, last time you explained it, required four fundamental entities and your weird numerological stuff.
 
Chriswl said:
My first reaction is to say that this is a compliment. But Dennett is one of the few philosophers who could shake me out of that perhaps rather prejudiced view. I'm pretty sure that what he does isn't science, but he works in an area of philosophy where scientific experiments and discoveries constitute an important part of the data to be made sense of and, furthermore, where the science is rapidly advancing. He's not afraid to take science seriously, even if it earns him the scorn of other more traditionally-minded colleagues.
Philosophers of mind shall pay no attention to scientists of brain.

~~ Paul
 
I wonder if this question is worth asking again:

JG, could you briefly summarise how our philosophies differ from yours, and how as a result, your actions are different?

I don't know who you mean by "us" and who you mean by "them". It all depends which question you ask.

Who is on Geoff's side? Hammegk? Paul? Lifegazer? Hyparxis? Randfan? Nescafe?
 
Under idealism, a mind is identical to its objects of perception?

If you add all the things you are aware of together, isn't that your mind?

That doesn't make any sense. That would mean the mind is changing as its objects of perception are.

It does, doesn't it? :con2:

Geoff, I'm obviously confused about the proof.

I didn't offer you a proof. I offered you a bowl of petunias and the words "Oh no. Not again."

Clearly the continuity of the conversation has been lost.

Yes, but I tried to abandon this thread 400 posts ago.
 
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I don't know who you mean by "us" and who you mean by "them". It all depends which question you ask.

Who is on Geoff's side? Hammegk? Paul? Lifegazer? Hyparxis? Randfan? Nescafe?

I would say that Hammy and Geoff believe that consciousness of some sort can and does exist outside the brain--be it "souls" gods or someone manipulating "synchronicity" games--It seems to me that the rest of the posters are saying that such a belief is a delusion--that there is no consciousness outside of a living brain--that a brain, itself, is necessary for any sort of consciousness, thinking, feeling, perception--
 
Many of them abandoned the whole mind-matter question as being misconceived. You're the one who is telling us that we are materialists and then telling us, at length, how silly we are. Why are you doing this?


So when he makes coments that sound philosophical you can't pretend that he is a stupid philosopher - he's just an ordinary person talking about the world in that loose way that we ordinary people do. Either that or he's talking as a scientist.

I can't say I've ever noticed anything obviously philosophical in Dawkins' writings. He normally sticks pretty closely to what he knows and argues very precisely and carefully. He's just a naturalist (in both senses of that word).

I think Dawkins has made a valuable contribution to philosophy and helping people be on the same page via the term "meme" which can evolve into meme-plexis (monism, religions, governments, materialism--an evolution of an idea...) Of course Justgeoff and Hammy will not read Dawkins or Dennet because they are evil atheist materialist who couldn't possibly offer anything of value to the belief they want to be true, yet they will deride them and elevate themselves above them nevertheless.
 
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Look, how cute. Hammy and Geoff are bonding...the share the same world view--zowie! They must be onto something. They may not make sense to us hard-headed p-zombies, but they understand eachother! That is touching. I didn't even know anyone understood Hammy. I shall take this as tangible evidence that justgeoff understand hammy. I learn something new everyday.
 
I would say that Hammy and Geoff believe that consciousness of some sort can and does exist outside the brain--be it "souls" gods or someone manipulating "synchronicity" games--It seems to me that the rest of the posters are saying that such a belief is a delusion--that there is no consciousness outside of a living brain--that a brain, itself, is necessary for any sort of consciousness, thinking, feeling, perception--



JustGeoff,

You have her on ignore, don't you? For clarity's sake, if even a little sliver of misunderstanding could be removed, could you please respond to this.
 
JustGeoff,

You have her on ignore, don't you? For clarity's sake, if even a little sliver of misunderstanding could be removed, could you please respond to this.

Hey, I found this at the philosophy of humanism website:

"Humanism, drawing especially upon the laws and facts of science, believes that we human beings are an evolutionary product of the Nature of which we are a part; that the mind is indivisibly conjoined with the functioning of the brain; and that as an inseparable unity of body and personality we can have no conscious survival after death."
(It sound so much simpler than the way geoff makes it sound.)

http://www.ihumanism.org/intro/10points.html

I think justgeoff won't answer because you can't get as much smoke and mirrors and semantic shuffling when things are "simple". Instead of telling us what we believe and why it makes no sense, I do wish he'd acknowledge the basic difference between his "non-materialistic" position and simple difference without all the isms and word games. It all boils down to the question as to weather or not consciousness can exist outside a brain or not, right? Or have a missed some hidden secret meaning among the insults, word games, p-zombi references and complete lack of acknowledgment on this subject?
 
JustGeoff,

You have her on ignore, don't you? For clarity's sake, if even a little sliver of misunderstanding could be removed, could you please respond to this.

OK then.

articulett wrote:

I would say that Hammy and Geoff believe that consciousness of some sort can and does exist outside the brain--be it "souls" gods or someone manipulating "synchronicity" games--It seems to me that the rest of the posters are saying that such a belief is a delusion--that there is no consciousness outside of a living brain--that a brain, itself, is necessary for any sort of consciousness, thinking, feeling, perception--

I have no idea why you think this, articulett. It's certainly not because I said it. Neither did hammegk. Minds cannot exist "outside the brain". Brains are neccessary for minds. AFAIK everybody on this forum agrees with this, with the sole exception of lifegazer.

It really would help if you actually tried to read and understand what other people post instead of assigning them opinions they don't hold based on your own preconceptions of what other people believe. Given the number of posts I have written in this thread, and the detail of the debate that has been had, and especially the number of your own posts which have cluttered the thread, it is astonishing to me that you do not actually have any idea what either myself or hammegk actually believe.
 
Hey, I found this at the philosophy of humanism website:

"Humanism, drawing especially upon the laws and facts of science, believes that we human beings are an evolutionary product of the Nature of which we are a part; that the mind is indivisibly conjoined with the functioning of the brain; and that as an inseparable unity of body and personality we can have no conscious survival after death."
(It sound so much simpler than the way geoff makes it sound.)

****NEWSFLASH FOR ARTICULETT****

I agree with every word of the above quote.

****NEWSFLASH FOR ARTICULETT****


I think justgeoff won't answer....

I do not normally answer you because your posts have little or nothing to do with what I am saying, and because nothing you say is of any interest to me. Apparently, you do not actually read any of my posts either.

Instead of telling us what we believe and why it makes no sense, I do wish he'd acknowledge the basic difference between his "non-materialistic" position and simple difference without all the isms and word games.

And I wish you'd compose sentences which make sense in English. This one doesn't.

It all boils down to the question as to weather or not consciousness can exist outside a brain or not, right?

Utterly wrong. Nobody is asking that question because everybody already agrees on the answer. I suggest you go back to page 1 and read the whole of this thread (yes, actually read it.) :oldroll:


Or have a missed some hidden secret meaning among the insults, word games, p-zombi references and complete lack of acknowledgment on this subject?

Yes, you have completely missed the point(s) I am defending and have no idea what I believe, or why I believe it. Which, given the amount of time you have been hanging around this thread, is beyond belief. I am so glad I have not been reading most of the random nonsense you post.
 
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Look, how cute. Hammy and Geoff are bonding...the share the same world view--zowie!

Articulett, you're not very old are you? I am just realising this. That's one of the odd things about the internet - you can end up talking to a twelve-year-old and not realise that this is what is happening.

What do you want to be when you grow up, articulett?
 
Of course Justgeoff and Hammy will not read Dawkins or Dennet.......

As usual you understand nothing at all. Dawkins was nothing less than my childhood hero, along with Sir David Attenborough and Patrick Moore. As for Dennett, I just spent a year studying the philosophical foundations of cognitive science at degree level, including Dennett. Unlike yourself, I actually understand the positions of the people I am challenging rather than just making up opinions and attibuting them to other people of whose opinions I am entirely ignorant.
 
Geoff said:
If you add all the things you are aware of together, isn't that your mind?
Good question. Someone in a blissful meditative state would say no. Also, under idealism, all the nonconscious stuff going on to keep the "external world" together must be part of my mind, no? There is nothing but mind.

It does, doesn't it?
People always talk of the mind as if there is some constant, unchanging aspect of it in the background.

I didn't offer you a proof. I offered you a bowl of petunias and the words "Oh no. Not again."
Leaving me just as confused as I was before I got hayfever.

Yes, but I tried to abandon this thread 400 posts ago.
That explains it!

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
I have no idea why you think this, articulett. It's certainly not because I said it. Neither did hammegk. Minds cannot exist "outside the brain". Brains are neccessary for minds. AFAIK everybody on this forum agrees with this, with the sole exception of lifegazer.
This doesn't seem to match idealism.

"the view that the existence of objects depends wholly or in part on the minds of those perceiving them or that reality is composed of minds and their states."

"in metaphysics, the doctrine that ideas, or thought, are the fundamental reality; in ethics, the devotion to moral ideals."

"the philosophical theory that ideas are the only reality"

"Various philosophical theories of mind fall under this category. Essentially, idealism is the view which posits that the material realm does not exist wholly independent of the mind. Idealism does not dismiss the notion that the material realm exists; it just asserts that the material realm must be perceived by the mind - i.e. that ultimately, the material realm (contepts, ideas, things, etc.) exists in the mind."

Bolding mine.

~~ Paul
 

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