Loose Change

Status
Not open for further replies.
My evidence is the speed at which it fell. If there were no explosives/accelerators, it would have been a LOT slower.

Can you show your work as to how fast the building should have fallen, in your expert estimation?


Building collapse has been studied for decades, if not for a whole century. It is well understood by Civil and Structural Engineers. Demolitionists also are quite familiar with what it takes to make a building fall and how fast it would fall if explosives were used. You don't just run in with a backpack of C4 and bring the building down.
 
OK, here we go:

Green Chili Stew:
2 lb Hatch Green Chili, roasted, peeled, and seeded
(I recommend "Medium" hot for maximum flavor )
Large Onion (yellow or White)
1 Lb good lean pork, cubed
1 large Potato
1 lb tomato, diced with seeds and pulp
2 cloves garlic, choped
Cilantro leaves
Black Pepper
salt
2 Tbsp Olive Oil
In large pot, brown the pork in the olive oil. Add onion and garlic, stirring until just starting to carmelize. Add everything else, plus enough water to cover.Bring to a boil, reduce heat cover and simmer. Continually adjust seasoning to taste (You can always add more--but its hard to remove it once its there.)
 
The whole idea that the US government is a monolithic entity is laughable. Which branch of the government? Which political party? The government is organized in such a way that it CANNOT be monolithic. Also, the political realities of Washington mean that each side is constantly watching the other, waiting for a single misstep that they can crow triumphantly to the press.

And what I don't get is, assuming this shadowy government conspiracy plotted 9/11 to allow us to invade Iraq, wouldn't they also have fabricated weapons of mass destruction to ensure domestic support of the war?

I'm reading Demon-Haunted World by Sagan and in a chapter on Roswell he quotes an Air Force Report that notes that if the United States Government and the Armed Forces had the ability to completely vanish all traces (paperwork, memos, correspondence, etc.) of an alien crash landing then the government would have undoubtedly used those techniques to protect our atomic secrets from the Soviet Union.

In the same way, if those shadowy conspirators have power to the mind-boggling extent necessary to execute 9/11 then wouldn't they have had more effective ways to dupe the American populace? Couldn't they have used their power in such a way to achieve their end result and avoid Alek discovering it all?

Seriously. Blowing up buildings in downtown New York, in broad daylight, in front of countless people and television cameras. Talk about unnecessary risks.
 
And what I don't get is, assuming this shadowy government conspiracy plotted 9/11 to allow us to invade Iraq, wouldn't they also have fabricated weapons of mass destruction to ensure domestic support of the war?

I'm reading Demon-Haunted World by Sagan and in a chapter on Roswell he quotes an Air Force Report that notes that if the United States Government and the Armed Forces had the ability to completely vanish all traces (paperwork, memos, correspondence, etc.) of an alien crash landing then the government would have undoubtedly used those techniques to protect our atomic secrets from the Soviet Union.

In the same way, if those shadowy conspirators have power to the mind-boggling extent necessary to execute 9/11 then wouldn't they have had more effective ways to dupe the American populace? Couldn't they have used their power in such a way to achieve their end result and avoid Alek discovering it all?

Seriously. Blowing up buildings in downtown New York, in broad daylight, in front of countless people and television cameras. Talk about unnecessary risks.
It's in this respect that CT's are much like the religious. Instead of answering all the tough questions with God did it, they blame it on the conspiracy elements. No evidence is required, the conspiracy just covers it up.
 
I'm reading Demon-Haunted World by Sagan and in a chapter on Roswell he quotes an Air Force Report that notes that if the United States Government and the Armed Forces had the ability to completely vanish all traces (paperwork, memos, correspondence, etc.) of an alien crash landing then the government would have undoubtedly used those techniques to protect our atomic secrets from the Soviet Union.
Hey, I just got finished reading that chapter! Oooooo!! *cue Twilight Zone music*

[/off topic silliness]

I agree with its relevance to the 9/11 conspiracy theories.
 
It's in this respect that CT's are much like the religious. Instead of answering all the tough questions with God did it, they blame it on the conspiracy elements. No evidence is required, the conspiracy just covers it up.
And it's all about an omnipotent power that works in mysterious ways.
 
In the same way, if those shadowy conspirators have power to the mind-boggling extent necessary to execute 9/11 then wouldn't they have had more effective ways to dupe the American populace? Couldn't they have used their power in such a way to achieve their end result and avoid Alek discovering it all?

Seriously. Blowing up buildings in downtown New York, in broad daylight, in front of countless people and television cameras. Talk about unnecessary risks.

For that matter, why bother slamming planes into the buildings if they were only going to use explosives to demolish the buildings? Why not just send up a boat load of explosives to the 99th floor and set them off? Still could be blamed on terrorists. Why blow up WTC7? It wasn't hit by a plane. It only serves to fuel the conspiracy theories.
 
I call it the Sinister Intelligence Agency faith. The beleif in some shadowy, mean-spirited, murderous agency that makes the darkest works of the CIA look like a Girl Scout Campfire meeting. This agency is 100% efficient in intimdating and murdering all the required experts, even though no CT can ever get a handle on how many need to be required. The agency manages to pull stunts that are unheard of, such as planting explosives in a burning building. Unlike every single other agency in the US government, it operates with perfect, 100% efficiency in what it strives to do.

Yet somehow, the SIA never tries to bump off the more prominent CT'ers.
 
Some time was spent on "Loose Change" saying that the steel used at the WTC was of some specified standard. Let us also assume that this steel really doesn't weaken in a jet fuel fire as the conspiracy buffs contend.

Instead of a vast conspiracy, I offer this theory of a smaller conspiracy: Not all the steel in the WTC was not really up to the specs that were required because 1) It's not uncommon for developers to cut costs by cutting corners. 2) The number of people that would have to "be in on it" is considerably smaller. 3) There would only have to be some substandard steel melting/weakening at certain points to initiate a collapse.

To test this theory, it would be nice to have a few pieces of WTC steel.

The video also said something about all the steel being hauled off to be recycled. Is there really no samples or pieces left at all? None?
 
And why do they have to be accessible via a quick Google search? How many of these experts are really so bothered about the whole thing that they'll set up websites announcing their opinions? That kind of behaviour is more indicative of cranks than anything else.

I'm a librarian and nothing bothers me more than the "Google is all" thinking. Granted, Google is amazing, but it does not contain all information ever produced for the human record.

I'd have to guess that if you're looking for the opinions of structural engineers then you'd be best to go to your library and find some structural engineering journals. Since most of those are published by for-profit entities, they probably would not be available for free consumption on the internet.
 
I call it the Sinister Intelligence Agency faith. The beleif in some shadowy, mean-spirited, murderous agency that makes the darkest works of the CIA look like a Girl Scout Campfire meeting. This agency is 100% efficient in intimdating and murdering all the required experts, even though no CT can ever get a handle on how many need to be required. The agency manages to pull stunts that are unheard of, such as planting explosives in a burning building. Unlike every single other agency in the US government, it operates with perfect, 100% efficiency in what it strives to do.
... well, not quite 100% effeciency, since apparently every kook in town knows about the conspiracy.

While the government was perfectly efficient in hushing it up, y'see, they blundered by making it completely obvious that 9/11 was a controlled demolition ... so obvious that this is apparent even to people who have no knowledge of demolition or explosives.
 
The Alex Jones video is full of misconceptions, outright lies, and terrible fallacies.

The Oklahoma City bombing was what it was... just an act of general terrorism.
 
... well, not quite 100% effeciency, since apparently every kook in town knows about the conspiracy.

While the government was perfectly efficient in hushing it up, y'see, they blundered by making it completely obvious that 9/11 was a controlled demolition ... so obvious that this is apparent even to people who have no knowledge of demolition or explosives.

While that may sound reasonable, you're forgetting the CT's incredible intellegence and intuition :rolleyes:
Personally, it isn't likely that anyone, whether they're considered to be an "expert", or whether they have a PhD behind their name is going to convince me that the WTC 7 building wasn't a controlled demolition. My own intelligence and intuition are paramount on this matter.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1413&st=68
 
Bah.

Obviouslt, WTC 7 fell because of a horrendous miscalculation while testing a new government anti-gravity device. THe wires were connected in opposing phase, thus making a pro-gravity device instead. This actually pulled the planes into the WTC 1 & 2. WTC 7, although at the center of the device, was built strongly enough (secret CIA labs and the Illuminati swimming pool, you know) that it hung around a bit before the building finally gave way.

This also explains why all the rescue workers got so tired, and had so much trouble in WTC7, as well as explaining why it fell so much faster than freefall (I mean, really, if I watch it at 4x in WMP, it falls in, like, 1 second!!).

It also only requires a very small conspiracy. Most of the explanation was cover up after the fact.

Of course, like every other CT that's been put forward here, my little fantasy offers no explanation for much of the events, such as reports from the planes via cell phone and/or plane phone of terrorists, Flight 93, the plane targetting the Pentagon (why not wire that to blow, too?), why use planes instead of just blowing the things up, why would this even be required to start a war in Iraq (seems it'd be much easier to manufacture chemical weapon attacks from Iraq to Isreal, for example, would be enough to incite a large percentage of the population without damaging the U.S., and would more than justify a war). There are too many things that don't make sense. The only way any of this fits together is if you start with an axiom like "THe gubmint always lies" and work from there.

Of course, that boils down to an "AD Hominem" argument, rather than anything based on actual evidence.

Not to mention that the entirety of the arguments rely on extreme misundertsandings of explosives and demolitions. Here's a hint...what you see on TV and in the movies is NOT what real explosions look like. Real building demolitions do NOT cause things to fall "faster than freefall". If the buildings had been wired to blow, they would have had to sneak in TRUCKLOADS of explosives over a period of DAYS just to get the amount of material there that was needed, as well as more days and weeks to get it properly wired and make sure it would go. Not to mention that damage from the airline crashes and subsequent fires would have ruined any sort of detonation system that would have been in place.

Does the official story account 100% for everything? No, it doesn't, and there are some things we may never know the exact nature of. Does this mean it's a conspiracy? No, it doesn't. They're using the same reasoning used by creationists..."evolution doesn't explain everythign so that means God did it!". We can add the Either/Or fallacy to their list of invalid argument techniques, as well.

Not to mention "Poisoning the Well" (if you don't believe it you're just snother dupe of Big Gubmint), a sort of historical Slippery Slope (the Gubmint lied before, so they would pull off a conspiracy to kill thousands of their own people and we're headed to a NWO), Ad Hominem attacks (you're just naysaying and refusing to see anything, you're stupid, you're a dupe, etc, etc), Appeal to Authority (this English Professor says that the buildings were demolished, so forget your Structural Engineer!), and probably more.

ETA: Oh, and Argument from Ignorance (no structural engineer can convince me, I know what it is, even if I have no expertise in the subject), thanks for reminding me David :)

These peopel are as deeply in love with thier CT as deep-south fundies are with thier religion, and I'd think for much the same reason. They're part of a "select club" of people who are "smart enough to have figured it out" and have "secret knowledge" about how things "really work". If you can't understand reality, make your own.
 
Last edited:
I call it the Sinister Intelligence Agency faith. The beleif in some shadowy, mean-spirited, murderous agency that makes the darkest works of the CIA look like a Girl Scout Campfire meeting. This agency is 100% efficient in intimdating and murdering all the required experts, even though no CT can ever get a handle on how many need to be required. The agency manages to pull stunts that are unheard of, such as planting explosives in a burning building. Unlike every single other agency in the US government, it operates with perfect, 100% efficiency in what it strives to do.

I think it was mentioned somewhere else in this thread (or maybe somewhere else completely), but in some strange way it's more reassuring to believe that the u.s. government is in total control but just very evil versus the opposite (what the real 9/11 story really suggests) that our government is pretty incompetent and we're no where as safe as we believe.
 
senorpogo:

That was me!!

Yeah, I'm remembered!

Heh, I made that point before. One thing I've discovered is that people are more afraid of uncertainty than evil. Look at dictatorships and tyrannies all over the world. It's almost unilaterally a very small percentage that's part of the total power group. But peopel are more afraid of what would happen if that government falls than they are of what the government does. Even though it's evil, evil can be predictable and understandable, and one can learn the "bounds" within which one can survive and possibly even gain advantage. It's more comforting to think it's planned (and thus, logical and rational), than a random act of a few violent, fanatical men who were able to slip through our trillion dollar defenses, because of incompetence, sloth, inattention, lack of manpower, apathy, infighting, and plain old bad luck.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom