Loose Change - Part III

[MarkyX]

so much bulls&*t, so little time. I'll listen to more over the weekend. Given how much crap he says, I am sure to be able to pull enough out for a great video...lol

As long as it doesn't repeat itself or the same myths. I'm looking for pure jackass behavior here, not ignorant statements. Jackass behavior involving ignorant statements do work though (like the Dubai myth, ha)

Like...a certain professor saying "All engineers are going to hell"

 

[Cylinder]

Yup, there were gradual restrictions - starting, IIRC, with Newark and Logan Airports (where UA175, UA93 and AA11 took off from).

Boston and New York Centers (FAA ATC control centers) declared ATC-Zero starting around 0905:

Boston Center immediately advised the New England Region that it was going to stop all departures at airports under its control. At 9:05, Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." At the same time, NewYork Center declared "ATC zero"-meaning that aircraft were not permitted to depart from, arrive at, or travel through New York Center's airspace until further notice.¹³²

FAA HQ ordered a nation-wide ground stop at 0925. No more commercial flights would be cleared for takeoff anywhere in the US:

By 9:25, FAA's Herndon Command Center and FAA headquarters knew two aircraft had crashed into the World Trade Center. They knew American 77 was lost. At least some FAA officials in Boston Center and the New England Region knew that a hijacker on board American 11 had said "we have some planes." Concerns over the safety of other aircraft began to mount. A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one at 9:25.¹⁴⁵

Ben Sniley, FAA's National Operations Manager, ordered all ATC Centers to route all civil aviation to the nearest available airport around 0945:

At 9:42, the Command Center learned from news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon. The Command Center's national operations manager, Ben Sliney, ordered all FAA facilities to instruct all aircraft to land at the nearest airport. This was an unprecedented order. The air traffic control system handled it with great skill, as about 4,500 commercial and general aviation aircraft soon landed without incident.¹⁶⁵

Sept. 11, 2001 was Sniley's first day on the job as operations manager - talk about having enough grapes for a job.

 

[kevin]

Do any of the CTers have a theory why the Pentagon? The capital building isn't that much further on (2 miles I think I measured it) and if your really want to get the people up in arms crash a plane into the capital buildings dome.

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.

 

[60hzxtl]

Once again, under the heading of IF:

Fighters arrive, fighters intercept.

Want to give the order to pull the trigger?

Sure of your shot, but are you certain of the situation?

What goes up, must come down. Over - Englewood? Flushing? Bed- Sty? Chelsea? Where is the plane, or what's left of it going to come down.

Think the CTer's are crazed now?

Imagine if a shoot down occurred. They'd be barking at the moon even louder, on more days of the week.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Do any of the CTers have a theory why the Pentagon? The capital building isn't that much further on (2 miles I think I measured it) and if your really want to get the people up in arms crash a plane into the capital buildings dome.

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.

The Capitol Building or the White House have been suggested as United 93's possible target. Fortunately, Todd beamer and his band of heroes took care of that for us.

 

[kevin]

The Capitol Building or the White House have been suggested as United 93's possible target. Fortunately, Todd beamer and his band of heroes took care of that for us.

Yeah, but the CTers claim that guy never existed (or wasn't on the plane or some crap). If this was a gov't run operation the pentagon would be a terrible target. Heck, some of the old hard core vietnam protesters probably thought it was a good idea.

Same for the idea that the pilot thought he was going to be shot down so changed to the closer target. If this was a military operation he'd know he wouldn't be shot at until too late. Same if they weren't planes. Capital building is a better target....

I'm guessing they say the Pentagon was picked to "divert" suspicion away from the military.

 

[gumboot]

FAA HQ ordered a nation-wide ground stop at 0925. No more commercial flights would be cleared for takeoff anywhere in the US:

As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

That wasn't put into effect into 0945, by Mineta.

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

The pentagon is a hardened military target. Much more damage could be done to the capital building.

That's part of their argument...they purposefully hit the only reinforced section of the Pentagon which was empty except for some construction workers (which isn't actually true, but never mind).

What they haven't explained is how the same government are so concerned about minimising casualties at Washington DC, yet so eager to cause death at NYC (CD, WTC7, WTC6 etc...)

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

What the hell would you do with an attack helicoptor? Strafe the Pentagon?

I suppose the Weapons Officer could shoot down the airliner with his 30mm chain gun. That's of course after the pilot deployed the super-secret turbo rockets that enabled the helicopter to catch up to the airliner...

Incidentally, that reminds me of another thing.

In their calculations the Loosers repeatedly remove the range of either Sidewinder or Sparrow AAMs for working out if the fighters were really "in range".

As I understand it, they don't shoot down errant airliners with missiles, theoretical or practical.

It's fine when every other aircraft in the area is either a friendly with IFF (Indicator: Friend-or-Foe) or an enemy (and even then you get friendly fire incidents). But this is a civilian airspace filled with civilian aircraft that don't have IFF at all.

They have to have visual confirmation, and they use cannon. Which means A) Getting in close to do a routine visual inspection of the aircraft at as close as a few hundred feet
B) Dropping back to gun range of no more than 2000ft (0.38 miles).

All this, of course, eats up precious time. The CTers imagine a Top Gun scene:

This is Whiskey 6, we have Tangos One, bearing three niner, angels 8. I have a lock, Fox One! Tango down!

-Andrew

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I suppose the Weapons Officer could shoot down the airliner with his 30mm chain gun. That's of course after the pilot deployed the super-secret turbo rockets that enabled the helicopter to catch up to the airliner...

The Apache is capable of mounting FIM-92 Stinger or, according to some sources, AIM-9L Sidewinder AAMs.

In my personal experience (forgive me for borrowing Chicken Coop Arsonists video games = real life arguments) as a desktop chopper jock in Microproses "GUNSHIP" and Janes "Longbow" games; the 30 mm chain gun on the Apache is frankly a piss-poor weapon for shooting down any other aircraft that isn't another chopper.

Either way, anyone who sends an attack chopper after a civillian airliner (or a military aircraft based on an airliner) is basically wasting fuel and ground crew man-hours.

 

[SRW]

For the cell phone claim, show a picture of an Airfone, along with an advertisement for it (United Airlines has a page about their Airfones).

Also, there's a page at ieee.org with the phrase: "Surprisingly, tests have shown that mobile phones actually work very well in the air."

Would love to post links, but still a number of posts short.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=675091

Problem here is these phones where analog Phones in 2001 were mostly Digital or hybrid (digital/analogue).

 

[Cylinder]

As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

Actually, ground stops do not affect aircraft en route. The media does misuse the term a bit. In a ground stop, nothing is allowed to depart. It's used quite a bit on individual airfields in situations like unsafe field conditions or emergency traffic. Here's a definition from Pilot's Web:

GROUND STOP- Normally, the last initiative to be utilized; this method mandates that the terminal facility will not allow any departures to enter the ARTCC airspace until further notified.

A nation-wide ground stop was initiated by Herdon at 0925. The order issued at 0945 was to divert all civil aviation to the nearest practicable airfield -which was already under ground stop orders.

 

[gumboot]

In my personal experience (forgive me for borrowing Chicken Coop Arsonists video games = real life arguments) as a desktop chopper jock in Microproses "GUNSHIP" and Janes "Longbow" games; the 30 mm chain gun on the Apache is frankly a piss-poor weapon for shooting down any other aircraft that isn't another chopper.

Well, I think the reality of a helicopter (max speed 158kt (Apache) 170kt (SuperCobra)) shooting down an airliner (cruise speed 530kt (757) 470kt (767)) is pretty stupid fullstop, but you wouldn't shoot down an airliner with an air-to-air missile.

It's all irrelevant anyway as the only attack helicopter unit based near Washington DC appears to be a US Army reserve unit at New York.

-Andrew

 

[Brainster]

That's part of their argument...they purposefully hit the only reinforced section of the Pentagon which was empty except for some construction workers (which isn't actually true, but never mind).

What they haven't explained is how the same government are so concerned about minimising casualties at Washington DC, yet so eager to cause death at NYC (CD, WTC7, WTC6 etc...)

-Andrew

They play the maximize/minimize game all the time, depending on what event they are trying to explain. Small loads on the planes is minimize. Announcement in the South Tower to go back to your desk is maximize. Controlled demolition is minimize (since it resulted in "fewer" deaths to people in other buildings). I think if we looked hard enough we'd find somebody who simultaneously claimed that the strike on the North Tower was timed to minimize casualties while the strike on the South Tower was intended to maximize them. It did not work out that way, but the logic of the CT enthusiast does not require actual real-world confirmation.

 

[gumboot]

A nation-wide ground stop was initiated by Herdon at 0925. The order issued at 0945 was to divert all civil aviation to the nearest practicable airfield -which was already under ground stop orders.

Thanks for the clarification, although I believe the precise time of the ground stop was 0926.

That would make the significance of Mineta's order probably a lot greater. A nation-wide ground stop is one thing. Banning ALL air traffic full stop (it wasn't just civil aviation either - law enforcement, medical, and military flights (excluding the CAPs) were only permitted later in the day).

Point being the C-130 in question was airborne when the ground stop was initiated (and does that 0925/6 order extend to all craft, or just civil aviation?).

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=675091

Problem here is these phones where analog Phones in 2001 were mostly Digital or hybrid (digital/analogue).

Don't forget over time mobile phones have tended to have smaller output power. Cancer and all that. If you go back far enough, the old Oki brief-case phones used by loggers in New Zealand in the 70's had to reach one of only a few transmitters which existed in the country, so they had a range of a good couple of hundred miles.

(It is also said you could fry an egg on the case of them while they were running... )

-Andrew

 

[SRW]

As long as it doesn't repeat itself or the same myths. I'm looking for pure jackass behavior here, not ignorant statements. Jackass behavior involving ignorant statements do work though (like the Dubai myth, ha)

Like...a certain professor saying "All engineers are going to hell"

I was looking for a Quote from Todd beamer's mother, to show her talking about the conversation with her son. anyway I ran across this site. It looks like and motherload of public domain vidio, I have not looked at much but I bet there are things you can use. Happy hunting.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=flight%2093%20AND%20mediatype%3Amovies

 

[Mancman]

Interesting short video about the South Tower core section that resisted the collapse: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1615521411849861778&q=wtc+collapse

 

[WildCat]

As I understand it (I could be wrong) the "ground stop" was the banning of all air traffic across the country - that is nothing was allowed to fly (including law enforcement and the military) and everything currently flying had to land immediately.

That wasn't put into effect into 0945, by Mineta.

-Andrew

Not military. I remember well about an ahour after it was announced that all remaining planes had landed when all of a sudden I heard jet noise, very loud and very low, going from south to north - direcly towards downtown Chicago. It was the one moment on that day where I felt terror, everyone on the street (I was in the Hyde Park neighborhood) looked up nervously. Turned out to be a pair of Illinois National Guard F-16's, flying along the lakefront. What a relief!

 

[Gravy]

Interesting short video about the South Tower core section that resisted the collapse: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1615521411849861778&q=wtc+collapse

Yes, that's a good clip, although the video quality isn't great. It's from the 2002 NOVA program "Why the Towers Fell." There are some decent still photos of that core section out there, but the angle of the video is better. So we've seen VERY tall portions of the cores of both towers standing briefly (several seconds in the case of the north tower) after most of the buildings collapsed around them.