Loose Change - Part III

[dubfan]

Be a hero dubfan!

Your cover is blown, might as well become a whistle blower...

Hey, is the second shift here yet? Cuz man, I'm spent.

And where's the pretty wench who normally gives me footrubs? Jessica, where are you?

 

[realitybites]

Well.... There ya have it.

mark roberts is a complete and total waste of my time.

if he wants to debate, he knows where to find us. ground zero on 9/11 this year.

 

[chran]

I just loved Jason Bermas on the "extra footage" on LC2E (my, aren't we special - "extra footage"! , going on about what countries Hitler invaded and he couldn't come up with a second one.

Handle on the facts, indeed!

 

[dubfan]

even his own people are now asking him to "take Gravy to the Mat"

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695

I will fly to New York to watch if this actually happens, though honestly I know that it won't. No way Dylan (or Bermas) would take Gravy on in public.

Better buy those plane tickets

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well.... There ya have it.

So, once again they dodge the issue of a moderated debate, and instead, defer to a situation where they can turn it in to a shouting match, a la Morton Downey Jr.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

I can't believe these people...

Now they're saying that all the people who died on the airplanes didn't die, because nobody in their small community of perpetual undergraduates personally knows anyone who died on the flights.

I'm not good at the math, so I can't even understand all this stuff about "Terminal Velocity" and "Free Fall Speeds." I had the lowest grades in math in the history of New York's elite Stuyvesant High School, and my assistant principal's reaction to that was to try and ship me to Automotive High School on the belief that if a student was not the new Fermat, he was scum.

However, I may not know math, but I can understand the humanities. And I find such prattle disgusting, crass, and boorishly insensitive.

These folks did not die? Why are their relatives still in mourning and pain?

These folks did not die? So where are they? How were they rounded up and sorted out? Who did this? What were these people told? Were they taken to Babi Yar and shot? Were these flights and their passengers picked at random? How were their last phone calls faked?

And yes, I do know of someone who died on Flight 77...the wife of the Solicitor General of the United States...admittedly the friend of a friend, but that woman is that friend's boss in the Department of Justice. The government is this cavalier with its high-ranking officials and their families?

A central thread of these Loose Changers and all conspiracy theorists is that behind the government folks who sit at their desks and do their jobs is a fairly large army of harder government people, with neither emotions nor empathy, who obediently participate in all kinds of horrific and highly illegal acts at the behest of their supervisors, out of rote obedience, religious obeisance, or conspiratorial oath. Then these villains, having done their dirty work, remain silent forever.

I guess they analogize it to Nazi Germany, but that doesn't work...during and after the war, numerous participants in the Holocaust admitted their misdeeds and evils. Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, wrote his memoirs, revealing himself to be a cold, unemotional killer. Other Nazi bigwigs like Otto Ohlendorf and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski testified as to their acts in postwar trials. Adolf Eichmann wrote his memoirs, which even said that Hitler gave the verbal order to Himmler to kill all the Jews. They knew it happened, and they provided the evidence for future generations of scholars to study. There is no such "evidence" to confirm the Loose Changer theories.

I think they actually see the world as a continuing James Bond movie, in which supervillains with armies of flunkies carefully and secretly arrange the world's destruction, to achieve their nefarious dreams, and only the lone all-knowing, handsome hero, battling his own leadership as well as the evil genius, can solve the mystery, and defeat the super-villain -- preferably in hand-to-hand combat amid his flaming headquarters -- and save humanity.

These guys see themselves as modern-day Byrons or Greek heroes, the sole defense of civilization against Blofeld and Goldfinger. They're not old enough to realize that James Bond is fiction, and so are most conspiracy theories.

The sheer waste of energy is incredible.

 

[ob986s]

Better buy those plane tickets

I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way.

Jon

 

[Brainster]

The Great Debunking of Gravy's Debunking

Has finally been created. Using sophisticated debating techniques and heavily footnoted and backed up by extensive research, Antti Partanen has demolished Gravy's debunking of Loose Change.

About the best that can be said now is that Gravy's debunking is a good introduction to the concepts us anti-Truthers are trying to get across.

Okay, just kidding.

 

[dubfan]

I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way.

Jon

I am SO there.

 

[Belz...]

When 9/11 arrived, some of us who are old enough to remember all these things, weren't all that surprised. Some of us thought, "I wonder what took them so long".

Well, I was severely demoralised on 9/11, but I wasn't surprised at all.

 

[Belz...]

Loose_Change...

From that thread:

You remeber exactly what you were told by mass media.

You mean Neocon's next logical step to promote their agenda?

 

[rikzilla]

I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way.

Jon

I rode the "Dragon" last month on my V-Star 1100. Got the t-shirt. Make sure you are driving something small and nimble for maximum effect!

I hope to see you guys in NYC. I'm not so sure I can make it as there may be plenty of local loosers about during the 9/11 commemoration at the Pentagon
and it may be better that I'm here to counter them...but if it looks like it'll all be in NYC I'm there!!! Gravy'll need some ninja minions of his own to help counter the barking moonbats of looser-land.

-z

 

[Belz...]

The latest line of argument over in that utopia of reason and logic:

I don't know anyone who actually was a passenger on one of the planes, and you don't either, therefore it's teh conspiracy!!11.

Not, that's an interesting nugget:

Kind of along the same lines of what I was asking about the other day too. It seems that not a one of them are a part of the 911 truth movement and those seem to be the strangest circumstances that thier loved ones died especially flight 93

Obviously, you dope. If they DID, they'd never believe that crap in the first place.

 

[Sentinel]

The WTC Project during late fifties

OK, All jokes aside.

= means the math


As stores around them closed, Radio Row's businessed thinned, and nocturnal fires and break ins plagued the area, including several at east radio. Irving reported the incidents to the police, but the perpetrators were never caught. Ethel is certain that the PA was behind a campaign to harrass the hold outs into leaving rapidly. "In the end," she say, "we were pushed out by the goons," because he chose not to relocate, irving recieved no compensation from the Port Authority when East Radio closed its doors.

Divided We Stand / A biiography of new York's World Trade Center
By Eric Darton


= means "landgrab"



Sentinel

 

[Belz...]

Unless you lived or worked in LA, SF, Boston, DC, or New Jersey, you'd be relatively unlikely to know any of the passengers, but if you were from any of those places it's quite possible. When Northwest Flight 255 went down in Detroit en route to my home of Phoenix, I knew a couple people on the flight; one ex-girlfriend and one Phoenix Suns basketball player. But there have been dozens of other plane crashes in the years before and after and since none of them involved a Phoenix flight, nobody I know has died.

My sister (New Jersey) knew two people on Flight 93--Todd Beamer (lived in her town) and Jeremy Glick (his father worked with her husband).

Maybe someone should tell the LOOSERs that.

 

[Belz...]

It's about time! Every time I got in a discussion over there, I came away feeling like Mr. Spock after a bad Vulcan mind-meld.

Or, just create a sock puppet and log in with a new name. My LC username is DJLegacy2k1 (ever notice that we're never seen in the same room together?).

You mean a SPOCK puppet ?

 

[Belz...]

From Loose change thread:

"That's why Dylan and LTW are such heroes to me. Their life is on the line for the cause of Truth. Already a number of truthseekers have met curious ends."

Yes, I'm sure Dylan keeps looking over his shoulder every time he goes out to buy milk.

 

[Sentinel]

Mayor Rudolph Guliani 1996

In early 1996, New York City Mayor Rudolph Guliani opend uo his capaign to privatize the trade center and many of its other assets by accusing the PA of hiding its artworks from the public. What business, the mayor asked-al beit rhetorically-did a port agency have amassing and collecting art in the first place ? And why was it spending public money decorating a real estate asset, that by rights, it should not own?


Devided we stand

Eric Darton



Sentinel

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

In early 1996, New York City Mayor Rudolph Guliani opend uo his capaign to privatize the trade center and many of its other assets by accusing the PA of hiding its artworks from the public. What business, the mayor asked-al beit rhetorically-did a port agency have amassing and collecting art in the first place ? And why was it spending public money decorating a real estate asset, that by rights, it should not own?


Devided we stand

Eric Darton



Sentinel

Am I correct in my assumption that you are attempting to show a pattern of behavior from the Port Authority, and plan to show how it ties to 9/11?

 

[kookbreaker]

Has finally been created. Using sophisticated debating techniques and heavily footnoted and backed up by extensive research, Antti Partanen has demolished Gravy's debunking of Loose Change.

About the best that can be said now is that Gravy's debunking is a good introduction to the concepts us anti-Truthers are trying to get across.

Okay, just kidding.

Whoo boy. All that time and not much to show for it. Lot's of snippets of Gravy's words, lots of lost context:

Remember the “Peace Dividend?”
I seriously doubt the Peace Dividend extended to the Pentagon, the power center of the military.

"I seriously doubt" becomes the standard of evidence here. Gravy is discussing the number of planes on alert in the post-cold war. The low number is an example of the peace dividend, and Pentagon did reduce its budget. The budget numbers are there, the facts about the number of planes are there, but this guys prefers to rely on "I seriously doubt"

In another example, with WTC7 he tries to equate evidence from Gravy with snippets from Loose Change:

Since we’re on the topic of WTC 7, let’s take a look at some more quotes from the experts who were on the scene.
Oh OK, you trust these experts, but not the ones who reported bombs in WTC1 and 2. Right.

First of all, nobody said 'a bomb', they said they heard explosions and describe them as being 'like a bomb'. The fact that these persons lived to tell about the noises indicates they certainly were not hearing a bomb designed for structural damage...those tend to not give you time to exit the building.

Second of all, Gravy gave full quotes specifically talking about the likely failure of the building, not snippets chosen from long running accounts.

So there is a reason that Gravy accepts comments of those experts over the snippets chosen by Dylan & co that likely do not represent what Dylan wants them to.

There's a level of sarcasm in this that puts Gravy's early version of the LCRG to shame. Sometimes he just seems angry at Gravy for making comments.