Loose Change - Part II

[aggle-rithm]

Lots of magical thinking going on over there and 'like, hey man Dylan' leads the way:

"if i'm compromising my integrity by respecting the wishes of both the Naudet Brothers AND the firefighters involved in their documentary, and by showing clear intention that my purpose in this movement is to help, not cause trouble, then i suppose i'm guilty."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=390

Respecting the wishes? How about, 'that's mine you stole it Dylan.' ?

They still don't have a clue over there about ownership and rights, and the stuff about "but, like, its educational man."

But they know all about CT, flying, and missiles. And Bush watching live from the Naudet's camera.


Prediction is that the Naudet's will present 'like, hey man Dylan' with a bill, plus legal charges, and he'll be screaming that's its censorship and blackmail - time to pile on FOX, CNN, etc. your stuff is up there too.


Yup, it ain't all limos and sunglasses Dylan.

It's always so sad when ugly reality crushes a beautiful fantasy...

 

[Shrinker]

Is this their big NYPD coverup? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.

Just been listening to the recordings. How tiresome. The whole thing is built upon the idea that the truck exploded and the explosion was covered up. The recordings don't show that it exploded, just that somebody thought it had exploded (he even follows it up with 'is that correct?'). Yet more quote mining in chaotic situations. Idiots.

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

Unfortunately, logic has no effect on them. However, they seem to have an irrational fear of lawsuits (strange, since they're apparently not afraid of the murderous, omnipotent government).

 

[Kiwiwriter]

The dog returns to its vomit

Is this their big NYPD coverup? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.

Of course...when in doubt, just blame the Jews. It's been working for humanity for 2006 years.

"Goyim kill goyim, and they come to hang the Jews," Menachem Begin said, in one of his harsher momens. Sometimes he was right.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

The "empty" WTC

It couldn't. But the Loosers always say "They would have done it at night when no one is there." What I'd like to find out is how many people worked in the WTC at night. I've been Googling but haven't been able to find out much of anything. The cleaning and maintenance staff must have been at least a couple hundred people. Add to that a couple dozen security guards. Then there's all the bankers and brokers who are there late at night doing business with people in Hong Kong and Tokyo. There must have been at least a few hundred people in each tower. Funny how none of them noticed the demo crews runnnig miles of det cord all over the place.

Steve S.

One of Mike Sheridan's many points...contrary to the conspiracy theories, the WTC was never "empty." There were always occupied offices in it, and an army of maintenance and security people. The tourist areas were certainly closed late at night, but the bombs were obviously not placed on the roof.

If these conspiracy theories weren't so dreadful, such insults to the dead, and believed by so many people who regard urban legends, conspiracy theories, and Comedy Central as legitimate sources of information, they would be laughable. I try to laugh anyway.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Why conspiracy theories prosper

I totally understand. I only wish it was the way they describe. There is this inexplicable desire to see everything as part of a larger conspiracy. I don't know why this is. I was just suggesting a new tactic for countering these fools. Mabe I am optimistic, but one whould hope that after a saturation of facts someone will come around.

They do two things:

First, they validate the theorist's pre-existing views (prejudices) about the world, his favorite enemies, and his paranoia. They put flesh on his theoretical bones.

Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.

 

[60hzxtl]

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

Things were in CHAOS in NY, with all sorts of rumors flying.

I would bet a mortgage payment that it was simply a Uhaul truck with the NYC paint scheme, which would have included the skyline and the Statue of Liberty and maybe a jet flying TO not at them.

http://www.uhaul.com/trucks/

I love it at the Loser's side when a single quote negates everything else is happening.


I Feeeeeel that it was. . .

 

[Hutch]

Is this their big NYPD coverup? It was the Joooooos! Yeah, couldn't see that one coming. It was so visible the top of it appeared over the horizon before the bottom did.

Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum.

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]

 

[Flo]

Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum.

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]

Add Cleopatra to the mix ...

 

[Gravy]

Just been listening to the recordings. How tiresome. The whole thing is built upon the idea that the truck exploded and the explosion was covered up. The recordings don't show that it exploded, just that somebody thought it had exploded (he even follows it up with 'is that correct?'). Yet more quote mining in chaotic situations. Idiots.

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

There were no bombs found anywhere, and certainly no truck bomb. Of course police were stopping trucks: remember that early on, many people thought it was a bomb, not an airplane, that damaged WTC 1. Remember also the 1993 bombing. Nothing could be more expected than for police to report that they saw a suspicious rental truck. They were suspicious of EVERY rental truck. Avery and DJLegacy spent two days on that theory! I wonder if they sent away for the blueprints of the truck: I hear you can get them for 128 Red Bull proofs-of-purchase.

If this is the kind of material they're gathering for the new version, I'm licking my chops.

 

[Manny]

Edit: Perhaps someone from NY can tell us if a truck bomb could have exploded 1 mile north of the WTC without any civilians noticing during, or afterwards.

Yeah, I kind of gave away the ending to DJ in that thread. I walked by King Street. Hell, probably half a million people walked by King Street. And I live just a few blocks north. There wasn't an explosion which left any trace worth noticing -- I suppose a truck's engine could have caught fire or somesuch.

We shall see if they learn from their mistakes. He's already gone off half-cocked and decided it's the Mossad and that NYPD is covering up the murders of 23 of their own, but he also say's he's "looking into it." I gave him the number of the local precinct, and a map of the area. Throwing "King St. New York, NY" into Google returns several businesses on that block or nearby. He knows someone's watching over his shoulder; let's see if that improves his "research" technique.

 

[Hellbound]

Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.

You know, I wonder if this isn't more true than you might think

Compare the official story to the CT:

1. Official story. The collapse is explained, but details on how 19 terrorists got into the country, resided here for an extended time, got flight training, and highjacked the planes are still incomplete. And these 19 were the tip of the iceberg, part of a large, distributed organization that is global, whose members we've only identified a portion of, and a leader that we aren't sure is alive or dead, and can't seem to track down. Our billion dollar defense systems and border guards and checks and such failed to stop a handful of low-tech threats. The most deadly military hardware didn't make a difference.

2. CTer version: We know exactly what happened. We know who did it (the government), why (excuse for war), and where they are (Washington). Our defense system didn't fail, it was intentionally disabled. 19 highjackers did not get into the country and hide amongst the populace. Our military and border guards are impregnable, except when they don't want to be.

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

 

[Belz...]

Of course...when in doubt, just blame the Jews. It's been working for humanity for 2006 years.

Methinks it's been working for a lot longer than that.

No explanation why, of course.

 

[Manny]

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

That's absolutely the attraction of CTs to at least some people. The just don't want to believe that the world is a random, chaotic place where weird stuff happens despite what we think are precautions against them. They want a world where somebody, somewhere, is in control even if that somebody is sometimes malevolent. (Insert shot at religion here.)

Manny, I am so tempted to send that thread (among others there) to Skeptic, ZN, and webfusion--can you imagine those three over in the LC Forum.

Course they'd be banned within their first 5 posts--but it would be a merry morning...

[Bug Bunny]Ain't I a stinker?[/Bugs Bunny]

Heh. Heh. Heh.

In other Bugs Bunny news, I was at a bar this weekend called the Spuyten Duyvel, which I used to think was just something funny which Bugs Bunny said. As it happens, the bar is no where near the actual Spuyten Duyvil, but their beer selection more than makes up for any geographic confusion they may cause.

 

[Gravy]

...I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder. I think we need geggy to explain this: something about the shock of 9/11 "closing the frontal lobes" of CTs.

eta: That was a rhetorical device, geggy. Your services are not needed.

 

[60hzxtl]

Yeah, . He's already gone off half-cocked and decided it's the Mossad and that NYPD is covering up the murders of 23 of their own, but he also say's he's "looking into it."

Geeeze Manny you just don't get it.

He's looking into it.

If he never finds it, it's a cover up.

Chase shadows and pukas all day and you never catch 'em.

Chase real bad guys and then you have a trial.

I'm still waiting for anything besides hearsay, or 'looks like', from someone who was never - ever there. Has no idea of the scale of the place, but has Feeeeeelings.

Can't wait for all the Perry Mason's over there to get to the next legal phase.

 

[rwguinn]

You know, I wonder if this isn't more true than you might think

Compare the official story to the CT:
(Reality snipped for brevity)
2. CTer version: We know exactly what happened. We know who did it (the government), why (excuse for war), and where they are (Washington). Our defense system didn't fail, it was intentionally disabled. 19 highjackers did not get into the country and hide amongst the populace. Our military and border guards are impregnable, except when they don't want to be.

I can see the attraction some would feel for option 2...it may be bleak or dark, but everything fits together rationally, and, oddly enough, it seems that it's easier for people to take intentional evil than simple incompetence/inability/mistakes.

I wouldn't necessarily simplify it as "simple incompetence/inability/mistakes", although mistakes comes close. Our Constitution and our society make such acts inevitable for those who are determined to harm us.
Our society is an open one, based on trust, which leans toward acceptance. You don't have to show an ID card/papers/permission slip to make a move--or at least, you didn't up until 911. The rock our society sits on is based on a lack of suspicion--innocence until proven guilty, prior restraint is illegal, have a nice day--all that stuff that makes for freedom is our foundation--and it is true, regardless of all the alfalfa you see on the news and read in print. It does work.
Unfortunately, such acts work to erode the trust and acceptance. A closed society will not allow these things to happen, through use of prior restraint, detention based on suspicion--whatever. We have way too much border to observe and defend to keep determined people out, so repression within is about the only way to make sure those who are charged with "Protect and Serve" duties can stop such acts. It has amazed me, the number of people willing to surrender som of my rights so that they can "feel" safe...

"Security X Freedom=constant. Unfortunately, that constant is different for everybody" Gordon R. Dickson

 

[dubfan]

I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder.

There's a thread over there now about a video that apparently shows someone in one of the towers on the phone, just prior to collapse. The video is synchronized to an audio recording of the phone call and it apparently goes right up to the collapse. By the descriptions given, the last few seconds are horrific. So the reactions over there are partly as you would expect -- shock, horror, distress, sadness. And anger, white-hot anger -- at George Bush.

I'm not going to dignify it with a link.

 

[Dave_46]

Gravy, thanks from you are very much appreciated if undeserved. As I said I was working in the Cardington laboratory on other work while those tests were being performed. For part of the time I was helping develop a test for the fire performance of external cladding systems (yes, totally irrelevant to the thread). The lab was basically a large corruated steel shed/hangar, originally built for airships. It is the southern one of a pair which can be clearly seen south of Bedford (UK). If you use Google Earth, it is at 52deg 06 min 32 sec North, 0 deg 25 min 16 sec West. Inside the hangar was the eight storey high steel framed building, a seven storey high concrete building and a six storey timber frame building, all constructed for structural and fire tests.

On a separate subject I was skimming the loose change discussion board (I don't do more than skim) and it seems to me that when they are discussing fire resistance testing they don't really have much idea what the purpose, and limitations of those tests are.

Dave

 

[chipmunk stew]

9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.

I don't know about any of you guys but I have been having one difficult time trying to discuss this subject (the subject of 9/11 and what really happened) to anyone -- I include in this group of people who would rather not hear me: my wife, my adult son (age 37), my three daughters (all adults), and a few friends (a couple of whom I can't fault as they were being polite in an exchange of conversational points on the subject but they also couldn't wait to leave the BBQ most quickly after I brought up the subject).