Loose Change - Part II

[Kiwiwriter]

Nothin' more than feelings...

Watching them scramble over at the Loser's forum is a hoot. Telling themselves that all we need is a circle hug and we'll- get -that -footage- we need- from -those -nasty -french- guys -who -are -they -to -stop- us- when- our- hearts- are- pure-


That made me realize that the movement over there is based on FEELINGS. We Feeel that wtc7 was ct. We Feeeeel that it was a missile nobody saw at the Pentagon. We Feeeeel that we can use other people's work for free.

Science plays no part. It's just feelings.

That's a big point...I'm reading Wilcox and George's hefty book on extremism in America, and a huge part of extremist and conspiracy theory is based on feelings, not evidence, as well as on making the evidence fit the feelings. Holocaust deniers do the same thing. A lot of it is about belief and proving the faith.

I'll let sociologists and psychologists talk about the quasi-religious aspects of these groups. I've noticed that a number of extremist groups collapse after the death or jailing of the charismatic founder.

 

[Pardalis]

Account suspended for two weeks.

WTF! What for?????

 

[bob_kark]

Ok, still listening to the podcast, I've just learned that oil is not a fossil fuel and therefore not in danger of running out. Neat!

 

[Kiwiwriter]

The big why

I am struggling through the Loose Change forum.

I have several little questions an one big question. I cannot find the answer.

The big question is what do they hope to gain by all of this?

Are they petioning to punish the responsible party? Are they out to help the families of victims?

That's what puzzles me, too...if the whole world is in the hands of a conspiracy, surely they don't expect to change anything...at some levels, they probably seriously believe that they will end up in a shallow grave in a dark forest. They don't, of course. Instead they get something far worse: ridicule.

As for helping victims and punishing those responsible...they don't really know what they want. The same is true with most of these extremist outfits. They have buzzwords and jargon (some of it mind-deadening), but no real policy or solutions. They just have this idea that once the evildoers are hanged by ropes they have sold us, Utopia will magically arrive.

Is there a link to a thread or even a post that give the reason why?

Oh, I don't accept "we need to stop them before they do it again...".

I would like to see something more like "we need to stop them before they do it again, so we are X (making this public, gathering funds to help the victims, hiring lawyers to punish, petitioning congress, etc.)

Yes, but then they'd have to actually do something besides whine. I point that out to other people who whine about "the mess the world is in," that they can whinge about it, or they can try to clean up their corner of it. They usually shut up when I point that out, and change the subject.

I would love to see some one say "with X information and X proof, we will do Y to guarantee that Z happens". Everything I am reading now just seems to be a b!tch session, blame game or calling some one else a poopy head.

Any help would be appreciated. Don't know how long I will have to read to find it myself.

Thanks

HN

Blaming is easier than constructive work.

 

[Manny]

If I was in the LC position, I'd be checking my toothpaste for explosives and my telephone for wiretaps.

But the fact is, the government doesn't particularly care much about "Loose Change" or any of these loose screws. The conspiracy theorists think they and their ideas are the center of the universe, and give themselves an exaggerated sense of self-importance to compensate for their utter unimportance. Yet at the same time, they also know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison any time soon. If the government attacks, the conspiracy theorist has a number of defenses: he can cry "Free Speech," which brings the ACLU in on his side, with their formidable resources, and he can play himself as the downtrodden activist standing in the face of oppressive government. Furthermore, the government is limited by its own regulations, codes, and the Constitution. For all the rubbish conspiracy theorists spout against the government conspiracy, they know the government is hamstrung by its own laws.

So the theorists not really worried about government reaction and harassment, such as that may be. On the other hand, when a well-heeled law firm, with a real budget, real resources, real knowledge of the legal system, hits them over the head with a real complaint, that gets the conspiracy theorist's attention and reaction. A real law firm with a real lawsuit can shut them down. The conspiracy theorists can't hide behind the First Amendment in a copyright case. They can't hide behind the First Amendment in a defamation case. Or a harassment case.

And these are civil actions, so they can't get the same kind of legal help and public support. Nor can they count on public sympathy. You violated copyright? You defamed some guy? No contributions here.

What's interesting is that their answer is to talk about harassing a legal firm with extra- and illegal measures. If it's exceptionally stupid to send harassing and threatening mail to the President of the United States, it's just as stupid to send such mail to a law firm that is pursuing an action against you. If anything, it wins their case for them. And such behavior breaks a passel of laws. Furthermore, such behavior again cuts off the sympathy...it's one thing to defend somebody for speaking up about 9/11 conspiracies, it's another to defend somebody for threatening a lawyer's life, because he or she is doing the job his firm and clients are paying him to do.

Extremists often regard themselves as being above the law, because of their role as "true believers" and the bringers of great truths. So they engage in the very tactics they accuse their opponents of engaging in. They become what they behold, and try to justify it as doing an evil to achieve a greater good.

Like Hitler and Stalin, unfortunately.

Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.

If I was in the LC position, I'd be checking my toothpaste for explosives...

Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

 

[Pardalis]

Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.

Excellent.

According to their fantasy reality, a lot of people involved in the "conspiracy" had to be bought to keep silent. So if so many people are easily corruptable, why haven't they been offered anything to shut up by the powers that be?

 

[Pardalis]

Damn double-post.

 

[dubfan]

WTF! What for?????

No explanation given. I suspect it was because I hadn't reached my smiley quota for the month. I thought 10

would've been enough, but I guess not.

 

[bob_kark]

Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

I LOVE that old gag!! Er, what? I have no idea what you're talking about. We These Globalist fellows use it all the time would never dream of doing something so cruel.

 

[Pardalis]

No explanation given. I suspect it was because I hadn't reached my smiley quota for the month. I thought 10 [qimg]http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif[/qimg] would've been enough, but I guess not.

I think it's because you insulted their friends the terrorists:

Why's that so hard to believe? Terrorists have been doing destructive, murderous acts for decades, exactly because they don't like the policies of this or that government. It is what terrorists do. The particular terrorists who pulled off 9/11 had been attacking American interests for years. Why is it so hard to accept that they hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings?

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Software to predic the future

They finally have proof of the conspiracy!! Wow, you must take a look at this:

Whistleblower



Ooooh!! Software that predicts the future?! How can you now deny that 9/11 was a conspiracy? I bet they had hoverboards and holodecks and stuff too!

ETA: Wow, that is the best intro to any podcast I've ever heard.

Well, don't torture me...how will the next seven World Series come out?

 

[dubfan]

Ahhh, man! Who's gonna be my mouthpiece over there. I can only lurk. I need to maintain some plausible deniability.

Sorry man, and I had you set for the hook-up with Jessica, too.

I have my own theory about her, btw. I think she's the real deal. I think the pics are real, and that's actually her posting. I think she sees a potential bandwagon/star vehicle here and wants to hop aboard, so she's trying to establish her CT cred.

If Dylan was smart he'd have her narrate (on-camera) LC3. Hopefully he'll remember to get her to sign a release first.

I suppose I shouldn't be giving them ideas, though.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

A little house right next to reality

Certainly a possibility. I believe an alternative. See, in the reality these guys have sketched out the government doesn't deal with real threats by going to court with the ACLU or trying to gain people's sympathy or by advancing an alternate version of the truth. They kill people. They make people disappear, or they kill thousands to get at a couple. They arrange to bomb embassies and barracks and Navy Ships for years in advance to set up the big operation to gain public support for (fill in the blank). In that reality, they don't "know they are not going to be packed off to Lubianka Prison."

That the Loosers will stand up to that crowd but not to a couple of attorneys tells me that they're aware that the reality they claim exists does not. If they believed their own posited version of reality they wouldn't sign their own names to things or go to public appearances. They'd post through anonymous proxies in foreign countries. That's what happens in places where the government is really a threat like China. In the real reality, as opposed to the one they advance, they know that they actually have something to fear from the attorneys and that they do not have something to fear from the government for all the reasons you mention.
I don't see a way around the proposition that they know that they're lying.

Did you catch this, Bob Kark? It's pure genius and I think we you the globalists, whoever they are, should incorporate this into our arsenal.

Yes, I think I follow your scenario...in the CT version of reality, the government makes its enemies vanish, like a stage magician making his assistant disappear. It's like how the Oklahoma City nuts claimed that Clinton blew up the building so as to destroy the Whitewater records.

So the CT guys will latch on to the next big disaster and say THAT was the attempt to stifle them. Gotcha.

(Dang, it's hard to unravel this illogic!)

 

[Pardalis]

(Dang, it's hard to unravel this illogic!)

Just switch your mind to "off". That'll do the trick.

 

[Manny]

I suppose I shouldn't be giving them ideas, though.

Quite the contrary, if she's the real deal. We ought to be sending her a free copy of Why People Believe Weird Things and an invite to TAM. Give her a chance to get on a more respectable bandwagon.

Maybe Rennie needs that treatment more though -- looks like a little light bulb has gone off for him.

 

[Pardalis]

Account suspended for two weeks.

Besides, how can they ban skeptics in their own skeptic sub-forum? Where's the logic in that?

 

[bob_kark]

Well, don't torture me...how will the next seven World Series come out?

Apparently Tampa Bay wins them all once the MLB finally institutes full scale steroid testing.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Mind switches

Just switch your mind to "off". That'll do the trick.

I--I would if I could....let me see....CLICK!

"Green acres is the place to be...."

 

[Kiwiwriter]

The new World Champs

Apparently Tampa Bay wins them all once the MLB finally institutes full scale steroid testing.

The only problem is that they'd be playing before thousands of empty seats, with Danny Almonte pitching for them.

 

[bob_kark]

I haven't been paying too much attention to the podcast for a little while. But now that I'm listening again, it seems that this guy believes there was a conspiracy because he has bad credit. Apparently they're trying to silence him. Maybe he should just pay his credit card bills...