Looking for Skeptics

[Pixel42]

There is an excellent preliminary test. Lets do it. Flaccon, what do you say?

How can Flaccon generate the checksum?

The wiki article I linked to lists several freeware tools:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checksum#Checksum_tools

 

[Vortigern99]

Just a thought:

The real claim behind all this is that spirits are talking freely on Tracey’s computer, through compression artifacts.

Why not go the actual jref route and create a video of Tracey asking her questions and receiving clear answers? Obviously this would be picked up by an external mic?!?

From what I’ve read, a video of the applicant performing their claim is required in the application process anyway. This would be a good test and it would move things along.

I support this proposed method.

 

[iknownothing]

But the magical spirits, who can't do much of anything that can actually be tested objectively, can certainly change a file without changing its MD5 hash or, indeed, any of the bits that make up the file.

That is my prediction for flaccon's interpretation of the result of this test, if it is ever performed.

I agree. It will probably just turn out that the spirits interact with the recordings in spiritual ways that a MD5 hash can't detect.

Has flaccon said what she would conclude, if all of this was done, and she heard the spirits talking, but there was no change in the files? Because if it wouldn't cause her any doubts, it won't accomplish anything.

 

[Donn]

To flaccon and co. "change to a file" == "I didn't hear this before."
All the algorithms surrounding files are moot. It's in the ears of the beholder.

ETA: The recent suggestion of a video of flaccon doing her entire thing such that we hear the voices as they speak is truly inspired.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If their communications are clear, unambiguous and in full sentences, then why the mystery about what abilities the spirits have? Why not just ask them what their abilities are and then copy their replies verbatim?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

If their communications are clear, unambiguous and in full sentences, then why the mystery about what abilities the spirits have? Why not just ask them what their abilities are and then copy their replies verbatim?

We don't know what they can do. We know what they can't do. They can't juggle, tame lions or put on a clown nose and make kids laugh. ☻

 

[Cassidy]

Oh, one other question, was the way you determined that the sound files changed by listening to them?

Sorry for delay. The files received & played so far, yes.

 

[Cassidy]

If their communications are clear, unambiguous and in full sentences, then why the mystery about what abilities the spirits have? Why not just ask them what their abilities are and then copy their replies verbatim?

Their communication can be clear at times yes. They have and can speak in full sentence yes. I do ask many questions, including the one above, I don't always get a reply. Sometimes they reply "Stop them questions, ..." and "Do not ask questions" and "Think for yourself" However, if I'm barking up the wrong tree, they correct me. Hard to explain but they sort of guide me to answers.

 

[Donn]

Their communication can be clear at times yes.

Can it?

They have and can speak in full sentence yes.

We have and can ask you to provide these examples for us to hear the full and clear sentences. Why have you not done so?

Sometimes they reply "Stop them questions, ..." and "Do not ask questions" and "Think for yourself"

Please share one of these occasions (the file and where within it) with us.

However, if I'm barking up the wrong tree, they correct me. Hard to explain but they sort of guide me to answers.

Well, sort of ask them to sort of get their sort of word sort of out. They can do more to become recognized. Sort of.

 

[petrov2500]

If the voices are created during playback, one would expect that the files would not be altered, so doing the MD5 thing would be useless.

 

[Daylightstar]

Their communication can be clear at times yes. They have and can speak in full sentence yes. ...

Right, let me yet again remind you of this post:

..., We don't belong in a circus. I listened in with her and said to her "I doubt you will hear that sentence its too long" She replied "Yes I got that sentence too" ...

... a spirit clearly but quietly says "It's evident we don't belong in a circus" ...

^{Hilites by Daylightstar}
flaccon, do you have in your possession a file in which such a sentence can clearly (and apparently repeatedly) be heard?

If so, I'd like to hear it. Could you email that file (email address via the icon below my post count) to me?
I'll extract the audio and post it here.

How about you send me that file, or since you said you'd have a box account, upload it there?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If the voices are created during playback, one would expect that the files would not be altered, so doing the MD5 thing would be useless.

But if the voices were spirits, only speaking during playback and were not part of the actual recording, then the message would not be the same if flaccon played the recording repeatedly, nor would scrappy be able to hear the same message on his recording.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

But if the voices were spirits, only speaking during playback and were not part of the actual recording, then the message would not be the same if flaccon played the recording repeatedly, nor would scrappy be able to hear the same message on his recording.

Take it easy. You're starting to make it sound like the claims on this thread are inconsistent and contradictory.

 

[Pup]

The result of the trial with jsfisher's files was that no files were altered. We have yet to see any evidence that any file has been altered. Once we can find that any alteration has happened I think your idea would be great for the next step.

Do you have any ideas about how we could help the spirits to alter a file?

Didn't flaccon claim at one point that even if the spirits altered a file on James Randi's computer, we wouldn't accept it as evidence? I thought she was fairly adamant that it was something the spirits were doing.

Has she abandoned the claim that spirits alter files, based on the situation with jsfisher? If not, it seems that the skeptics aren't the ones refusing to accept evidence.

 

[Paul2]

Sorry for delay. The files received & played so far, yes.

Listening to the file being played, and comparing the checksum are very different. Just by listening, two people might well hear different things for all sort of reasons, but everyone doing a checksum will (should) agree.

You're really saying that the audio of the files sound the same, but the checksum says that all the data (the zeros and ones that make up a digital sound file)are all the same. Those are two different things and don't always coincide.

I suggest you try the checksum test that Pixel2 developed

 

[Donn]

Brings to mind Randi's metaphor of the reindeer.

You claim reindeer can fly. You obtain a vast supply and toss them, one by one, off the roof of a tall building.
Splat! "Not that one." Makes a cross mark on list. "Next!"
Splat! "Not that one."
This continues until there are no more test reindeer, poor dears. Undaunted, you simply claim that these reindeer were atypical; that out there somewhere is the one that will fly. In the background, Monty Python is heard to suggest that a few of the deceased deer were sporting wings but didn't feel like flapping.

Okay, I have butchered it slightly, but to an end. If we could control the variables such that we finally convince flaccon that scrappy cannot actually hear what she claims; if we continue this devastating form and show that none of her "witnesses" can either, then we will be on the roof of that tall building.

flaccon will be the one chucking people off the roof hoping to find one that can hear her "spirits." I don't think she will accept that her faculties are misapprehending reality, I think she'll simply insist that out there somewhere exist the real Hearers Of Her Spirit Voices.

C'est la vie; I hope I'm wrong.

 

[petrov2500]

But if the voices were spirits, only speaking during playback and were not part of the actual recording, then the message would not be the same if flaccon played the recording repeatedly, nor would scrappy be able to hear the same message on his recording.

Didn't she claim that the recordings stay constant though? The best way to interpret this claim is that the spirits "imbue" themselves into specific recordings but do not alter the files themselves. They only modify the output of the speakers when the "imbued" files are played.

 

[tuxcat]

Take it easy. You're starting to make it sound like the claims on this thread are inconsistent and contradictory.

Maurice, not even I can keep up with the claims! Flaccon has posted her reply to what her claim was, but confounding variables (or rather confounded!) seem to keep appearing - wires are touched, wires aren't touched. The files change, files don't change. The voices are clear, the voices are as clear as mud. And ad absurditum/nausea

 

[tuxcat]

Didn't she claim that the recordings stay constant though? The best way to interpret this claim is that the spirits "imbue" themselves into specific recordings but do not alter the files themselves. They only modify the output of the speakers when the "imbued" files are played.

That would take flaccon back to the problem of requiring participants' judgement at a test - which would invalidate it as the results wouldn't be self-evident.

 

[pakeha]

If a silent audio file falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

Nice one!

Their communication can be clear at times yes. They have and can speak in full sentence yes. I do ask many questions, including the one above, I don't always get a reply. Sometimes they reply "Stop them questions, ..." and "Do not ask questions" and "Think for yourself" However, if I'm barking up the wrong tree, they correct me. Hard to explain but they sort of guide me to answers.

I'm still looking forward to hearing a recording with a full sentence.