Looking for Skeptics

[Cassidy]

If it was raining, perhaps the clonk noises are a drip on a windowsill.

VolUpInt doesn't sound to me as if it reduces to silence toward the end. It's got a bit of the same flickery sound of the gain changing that VolumeNormInt has, but otherwise the only sound is a bit of bumping at about 21 seconds which sounds like someone moving around, perhaps in another room.

You may have an older version of Cyberlink Youcam. It appears to be available now for purchase or as a time limited free trial of version 5.

If js reports rain in the background, this clonking may well have occurred that way, but the silence at 21 seconds and the crackle thereafter, would not have occurred.

Another theory is, if js puts some kind of lock (seal) on his recordings, it is possible that the spirits cannot break through this seal with (attempted) speech, but they can cause a clonking, an interference, a silence, to still have their presence known.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

flaccon,
have you ever followed your usual routine and asked the spirits not to alter the files? If so, what happened when you played back?

 

[Alderbank]

I am sure Cyberlink Youcam is a free software.

The Cyberlink website http://www.cyberlink.com/index_en_GB.html?r=1 says Free Download but this is slightly misleading because it is a 30 day free trial then £25.99

 

[jsfisher]

Another theory is, if js puts some kind of lock (seal) on his recordings, it is possible that the spirits cannot break through this seal with (attempted) speech, but they can cause a clonking, an interference, a silence, to still have their presence known.

There was no lock nor seal placed on the recordings.

Flaccon, you are struggling, here, to preserve some belief in a particular mechanism. Please stop. It is not important. Leaping ahead to how the spirits work their magic isn't helpful; first we need to demonstrate whether there is any actual magic afoot in the first place.

You have claimed the spirits can alter a recording, including all copies of it. How can we objectively (important word, objectively) detect that a recording has changed?

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

If js reports rain in the background, this clonking may well have occurred that way, but the silence at 21 seconds and the crackle thereafter, would not have occurred.

Another theory is, if js puts some kind of lock (seal) on his recordings, it is possible that the spirits cannot break through this seal with (attempted) speech, but they can cause a clonking, an interference, a silence, to still have their presence known.

Yes, that's a kind of theory, although I think it's more accurate to call it a hypothesis.

How would you test whether this is happening?

 

[Cassidy]

Who mentioned trickery?
You have provided no evidence that a file alters because a copy plays on your laptop.
The skeptics here are hoping to do a little trial with you to establish whether that happens or not .....

Sorry Daystar, I was not referring to your posting. It gets confusing. I haven't provided firm evidence yet , I only found this ability out 3.5 weeks ago, and was disconnected for almost 3 weeks. During those 3 weeks, I tested it on a different laptop, and it was again, a success. I am hoping to sort a little trial out, under more strict observation.

If it wasn't for Scrappy stepping forward and sending me that file 3.5 weeks ago, I might never have realised this ability.

For everyone, please understand that this is still unfolding before my eyes, and I will update anything worthy of updating.

 

[Cassidy]

Yes, that's a kind of theory, although I think it's more accurate to call it a hypothesis.

How would you test whether this is happening?

By trying it out under a more strict observation.

 

[Alderbank]

If we don't look for "voices" (for now) we can immediately eliminate Paredolia. If we look for "differences" after I have played the recordings through this machine. It is likely that if they cannot break through with voice, they will at least alter the original recording in some way. Do you agree to 30 seconds of silent (WMV - Vol normal) recordings from each participant?

I think this is a good suggestion for moving ahead one step at a time.

When we talk about files changing and differences, I think we need some additional terms so we all have the same understanding. I suggest the following but you might have better ideas:

.... File data changed: MD5 hash changed

.... File audio changed: File sounds different. This is subjective. It could refer to background noise, silence or clear speech

.... File waveform changed: Compare using e.g. Audacity. Digital copies should be identical. Extremely subtle changes can be detected. Change to a waveform without change to MD5 would be significant

Using terms like these I think we could quickly run flaccon's protocol above

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

flaccon,
have you ever followed your usual routine and asked the spirits not to alter the files? If so, what happened when you played back?

Hi flaccon,


If it's not too much to ask, could you please clearly answer this question?

Because it is so very relevant.

If the "spirits" can alter files or speak only when asked to, and if they can choose not to alter files or answer questions when asked not to, there is a lot of room for testing right there.

 

[Cassidy]

There was no lock nor seal placed on the recordings.

Flaccon, you are struggling, here, to preserve some belief in a particular mechanism. Please stop. It is not important. Leaping ahead to how the spirits work their magic isn't helpful; first we need to demonstrate whether there is any actual magic afoot in the first place.

You have claimed the spirits can alter a recording, including all copies of it. How can we objectively (important word, objectively) detect that a recording has changed?

Sorry did I misread? I thought it was mentioned that you had used a lock, some sort of seal? If you didn't, it was certainly suggested that you did. If you reported a steady rainfall noise all the way through the original recording "VolNormInt" and then report that there is an interference at 21 seconds and thereon (on the original) after I played it through my machine, surely that is something worth looking into?

 

[Cassidy]

Hi flaccon,


If it's not too much to ask, could you please clearly answer this question?

Because it is so very relevant.

If the "spirits" can alter files or speak only when asked to, and if they can choose not to alter files or answer questions when asked not to, there is a lot of room for testing right there.

They don't speak on request, they speak in unison. When I press "play" it is never in the middle of a conversation. It is highly likely they can choose not to alter files. They do join in conversation about JREF, on recordings dating back to 2012, and they do NOT alter the clearest of files when I replay them.

They only alter old files that I've have dismissed as useless.

 

[Alderbank]

Lots of questions posed and hypotheses floated but it is clear that we don't know any of the answers yet because we just have not done enough trials.

Why don't we take a workshop approach and carry out a few simple preliminary tests?

Based on jsfisher's tests the other night the current position is that no files were actually altered in data or waveform although some participants believed they could detect a change.

I think we now have enough participants, knowledge and other resources to start doing some further simple tests such as the 'Is there a difference?' test proposed by flaccon, firstly to determine if there is any phenomenon there at all.

PS The talkers can still carry on speculating while the doers try things out

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If js reports rain in the background, this clonking may well have occurred that way, but the silence at 21 seconds and the crackle thereafter, would not have occurred.

Another theory is, if js puts some kind of lock (seal) on his recordings, it is possible that the spirits cannot break through this seal with (attempted) speech, but they can cause a clonking, an interference, a silence, to still have their presence known.

The silence is still not really silence, it's just quieter. It appears to my ear that the clonk at just about 22 seconds is loud enough to make an automatic gain control duck the level down so everything gets quieter. With almost any consumer recording equipment you can demonstrate a similar effect by bumping the microphone - everything suddenly goes quiet (not silent, please note, just quiet).

That parsimonious explanation has the benefit of only involving things which are known to exist. A hypothesis plucked out of thin air involving spirits and magical locks is all a bit Harry Potter I'm sorry to say.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

They don't speak on request, they speak in unison. When I press "play" it is never in the middle of a conversation. It is highly likely they can choose not to alter files. They do join in conversation about JREF, on recordings dating back to 2012, and they do NOT alter the clearest of files when I replay them.

They only alter old files that I've have dismissed as useless.

Why is it that the particular files we can listen to always have vague notions like "Evidence" and "Robin", and when we discuss past recordings they supposedly contain voices who join in conversation with online forums, describe plans to save the world from destruction, heal disabilities and protect people from evil entities? Any idea? Just wondering.

I encourage you to continue negotiating terms with the skeptics who are still interested, but I know that if we were to look at every claim you've made, we'd find an awful lot of bold statements you will never back-up with evidence. Let's try not to pile the claims too high.

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

Yes, that's a kind of theory, although I think it's more accurate to call it a hypothesis.

How would you test whether this is happening?

By trying it out under a more strict observation.

Okay, we're coming at this from very different places, so I'll try to put this in simpler terms. Please don't be offended if I seem to be patronising you, because I'm just trying to make sure that everyone agrees.

You believe that certain files of jsfisher's are "locked" in such a way that the spirits can't get onto them. Correct?

You believe that their attempts to get onto these "locked" files might cause some different sort of noise, like a knocking that wasn't there before. Correct?

You believe that this is a new anomaly which seems to be unique to jsfisher's files. Correct?

What I'm looking for is a suggestion for how you could check whether this is happening, that rules out possible ways that you could be misled into thinking this and results in a clear and unambiguous yes/no result. Just a "more strict observation" isn't much help.

Would MD5 hashes be any use, as confirmation that the file has or hasn't been altered? Alternatively, maybe jsfisher could make some recordings and someone else could make some in the same way, they could be randomly labeled and you could identify which is which. Please have a think, starting with a precise statement of what you think is happening, what the spirits can do and what they can't, because without that there's nothing we can do.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Sorry did I misread? I thought it was mentioned that you had used a lock, some sort of seal? If you didn't, it was certainly suggested that you did.

What was used is not a lock or seal. It's more like a fingerprint. It doesn't prevent anyone changing the file, but if you compare two files, any difference at all will be obvious.

The MD5 hash is a code number which a computer can easily generate from the data in a file. If you generate an MD5 from another copy of the file, it should look identical, but it will look completely different if the copy has been altered.


Try a crude analogy: Imagine you emailed someone the text of War and Peace, and later they emailed it back to you. How could you tell if they had edited the story?

If you had a computer program which, say, counted how many times the letter A appeared, how many times B appeared etc in the whole text, then you would get a list of 26 numbers, one for each letter of the alphabet. If you ran the original text through your program, and then did the same with the returned copy, it would be easy to compare lists and see if anything had changed.

An MD5 hash does the same thing but in a much more subtle and harder to fool way.

 

[chillzero]

They don't speak on request, they speak in unison.

Does this mean that no, you never asked them? You never made an attempt to check that the noises were from spirits or your equipment?

When I press "play" it is never in the middle of a conversation.

Does this mean that you hear them, and know when a conversation is starting? Or that when you listen, you hear things from the start? How do you know, if so, that you did not miss other sentences? Particularly if they are not responding to your request as claimed above?

It is highly likely they can choose not to alter files.

This is not even an assertion - it's an assumption. How have you checked this assumption? Don't you think that would be important?

<snip>

They only alter old files that I've have dismissed as useless.

That's different. Why all the talk about new files, then?


flaccon, please read carefully, and take time to answer slowly without weaving some storytelling and theorising around your answers .... if you want to be clear enough for us to follow.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You believe that certain files of jsfisher's are "locked" in such a way that the spirits can't get onto them. Correct?

I think that might be a red herring. flaccon misunderstood what an MD5 hash was and speculated that it might stop someone (or something) from changing a file.

Also, so far as I can tell, jsfisher did not create an MD5 hash of the file before sending it to flaccon, so all we know for sure is that the original file and the copy have identical MD5 hashes now.

Since flaccon's claim was that spirit intervention could change both her copy and the original we haven't disproven that.

 

[SusanB-M1]

If js reports rain in the background, this clonking may well have occurred that way, but the silence at 21 seconds and the crackle thereafter, would not have occurred.

Another theory is, if js puts some kind of lock (seal) on his recordings, it is possible that the spirits cannot break through this seal with (attempted) speech, but they can cause a clonking, an interference, a silence, to still have their presence known.

But why would they do that if their message was so important?

 

[Cassidy]

Does this mean that no, you never asked them? You never made an attempt to check that the noises were from spirits or your equipment?


Does this mean that you hear them, and know when a conversation is starting? Or that when you listen, you hear things from the start? How do you know, if so, that you did not miss other sentences? Particularly if they are not responding to your request as claimed above?


This is not even an assertion - it's an assumption. How have you checked this assumption? Don't you think that would be important?


That's different. Why all the talk about new files, then?


flaccon, please read carefully, and take time to answer slowly without weaving some storytelling and theorising around your answers .... if you want to be clear enough for us to follow.

I asked 9 months ago do they begin to speak when I press play. My Father used to say "Tracey.." before every sentence (sometimes still does) hence how I follow his tone through the other voices.

I'd call it an educated guess considering they do not alter certain files, but do alter the useless files. I'm not weaving or story-telling. I am just saying it as I see it.