Logical? Deism.
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Rosetta Stone
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Suppose that the universe will eventually succumb to heat death, where there's nothing happening anymore, and possibly, no objects because everything has decayed. What then becomes of time, when there's nothing to measure?
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Bogus argument.
My mind is 0 cm wide and 0 cm deep. Does this mean it doesn't exist?
Tricky
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Asking a person who doesn't exist to say anything is almost as ridiculous as asking how long a timeless state lasted. What have you heard recently from dead people?wraith said:...and you can?
When you cease to exist Tricky () I want you to say "I perceieve no time!"
It makes exactly as much sense as the "proof" for Logical Deism, i.e. none.
ahhh no, that doesnt flow
You really aren't getting this are you? The timeless state means there is nothing. No length, no squares, no you.
I know you've repeated the same few things a lot of times, but not anything you have said constitutes evidence. You have never shown me why the existence of the laws of physics predicates a higher power. All you have said is that you can't imagine it to be otherwise. Well I can. I can imagine a lot of different scenarios, but without evidence for them, it is pointless to believe in them.
Start with something simple. What is the experimental evidence you have for gravitons?
Show me a single consciousness which is not associated with a physical brain and I will place some credence in what you say. No, don't just claim it. Show it. If you expect me to just take your word for it, why you would be harboring a double standard since you ask others to provide proof of everything they propose.
How are you more conscious than TLOP without your precious double standard?
Actually, I don't gamble at all. I don't even play the lottery. Tell me, wraith, why aren't you wealthy, what with your inside knowlege of what is going to happen in the future? You should be cleaning up at the race track.
wraith
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Tricky said:
Thats the point. When anyone says "I can perceive no time" they might aswell say "I can perceive time when Im dead".
For what reason did "no-time" become "time"?
You have spacetime...space and time are connected...
What are you? Youre a consciousness that operates via MPB thats based on Time and history...
Sounds like the work of Gravity
I cant force a square peg into a round hole. Thats what you want me today. You are looking through a "matter creates consciousness" window.
You say physical brain.
I say a brain thats made of energy.
hate to tell you this, but atheism is a HUGE gamble...
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wraith said:
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler....
Tricky
Briefly immortal
But no one is saying they can "perceive" no time. They say they can "imagine" no time. You do understand the difference, do you not?wraith said:
The same reason the universe came into existence (which evidence suggests was the Big Bang). Once things existed, then time had meaning.
Do you honestly think that jumble of words makes any sense? And why the heck would you say "sounds like the work of Gravity" any more than you would say "sounds like the work of stellar radiation" or "sounds like the work of leprachauns"? You have failed to establish any sort of connection to gravity.
If consciousness is tied to gravity, then why do not astronauts become unconscious (or at least sluggish) while they are in a place where the effects of gravity are negligible? If you could show that to be true, then I'd call it evidence. Unfortunately for you, we have lots of evidence that this is not the case.
Because it's the only one open. Your "consciousness creates matter" window is locked and boarded. You cannot show a single piece of evidence for the truth of that statement. Why is it you can imagine a disembodied consciousness, but cannot fathom a timeless state?
I have lots of evidence for physical brains. I've seen a number of them. There are whole branches of science dedicated to them. I have yet to see a brain made of energy. Please show me one and I'll put some credence in your statement.
Still buying into Pascal's Wager eh wraith? It is a simple task to debunk it.
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It means that souls do not have physical dimensions, but still exist.
And since time, as well as space, belongs to the physical Universe, things which have no temporal dimension may also exist.
One marked with centimetres.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Perhaps the appropriate question is "What kind of dimension does a soul have?"UndercoverElephant said:
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler....
Tricky
Briefly immortal
'Bout time to get this thread back on topic again. There are a couple of important new additions to the list of Logical Deism beliefs. Of particular importance is the discovery that the Logical Goddess does not control your perceptions. My only conclusion can be that perceptions lie outside The Laws Of Physics.
As always, thanks to contributers (CWL in particular this time) and an open invitation to Logical Deists to correct the list.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins
How Things Work
Morality
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.
As always, thanks to contributers (CWL in particular this time) and an open invitation to Logical Deists to correct the list.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins
- This universe is part of an omniverse.
- The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals.
- The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
- The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
- This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
- The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
- The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
[*] Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not. - The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
- Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
- Consciousness creates matter.
- Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time.
- The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .
How Things Work
- One soul = one graviton.
- Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
- The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
- Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
- Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
- Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin
[*] Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity - The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
- Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. - There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
- The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
- This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
- TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
- The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
- The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
- True randomness does not exist.
- If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
- Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
- Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
- Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
- Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodymics.
- A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
- Gravitons are made of time
- The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them.
- Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
- Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
- The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
- If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
- Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
- At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
- Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.
- The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP
- Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time.
Morality
- Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
- Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
- The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
- the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
- There are consequences for the things you do.
- The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
- You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
- MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
- Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
- Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
- A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon
- Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
- Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
- No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
- choices are preordained outputs
- In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
- Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate.
- Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.
- Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence.
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.
Tricky:
What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
What in the world trigered this little rant, Franko? Does this have anything to do with what was recently posted, or was it just a random synaptic event?Franko said:
However, I would be interested in knowing if under Logical Deism, one's perceptions (which are not under control of the LG) obey TLOP. Try to stay on topic.
Tricky,
The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.