Logical? Deism.
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Tricky
Briefly immortal
Yeah, Frank. I got so many sock puppets I can't keep track of them. The outlook for pessimism is very optimistic.Franko said:Yeah I didn't think you would change your tune Troll-boy.
Gotten any new recruits to the church of Pessimism lately?
Let me explain what’s going on. Tricky (or Trixy) is a hard-core fanatical militant A-Theist who has dedicated the vast majority of his existence to the cause. For most of his life he has been running around telling people how they are going to cease to exist, and how they are idiots for believing in a “god”. At this point he is so committed there is just no turning back.
Now Trixy, he’s a first class hypocrite. He has one standard of morals that he expects you to live by, but for himself he has a completely different code of “honesty”. You see Trixy will laugh at you, and call You retarded for claiming that there is no “god” with no evidence to back you up. But at the same time he expects You to bow down and kiss his metaphysically superior ass because he believes that he has magic “free will” powers that allow him to defy the Laws of Physics. Of course he has no proof of his magic powers, in fact the evidence is clearly all against him. Never-the-less you are a moron if you do not believe Trixy’s claim about his “wizardry” (at least in his mind). In short, “Tricky’s” trick is an absurd double standard perpetrated at Your expense. (You know that saying about “with friends like that …”?)
Okay, so Trixy can’t refute any of my arguments, I am making him look like a complete and utter fool, and I am seriously interfering with his recruitment drive for the World Church of A-Theism, so he gets offline and organizes a dozen or so of his little A-Theist lackies to follow me around on the forum and basically post a bunch of spam (insults, jokes, off topic crap, sockpuppets galore, silly threads, ask the same contradictory questions over and over, etc., etc.). Then they all whine to the moderators about 8 or 9 times and try and get me banned.
To this day you will notice there are always at least a couple of derogatory threads with my name in them, ALL started by fanatical members of the Cult of A-Theism. It seems that every other week the moderators are forced to move some a-Theist insult thread off to the hidden recesses of the forum.
No … Trixy and his little A-Theists friends aren’t interested in Skepticism at all. They are religious fanatics from the cynical cult of pessimism. Plain and simple. Tricky is the biggest liar on this forum Darling. He has stated in word and demonstrated by deed that he is an individual who believes there will be no ultimate consequences for his actions. If he can benefit by harming you, then by his own logic he will.
Now Trixy, he’s a first class hypocrite. He has one standard of morals that he expects you to live by, but for himself he has a completely different code of “honesty”. You see Trixy will laugh at you, and call You retarded for claiming that there is no “god” with no evidence to back you up. But at the same time he expects You to bow down and kiss his metaphysically superior ass because he believes that he has magic “free will” powers that allow him to defy the Laws of Physics. Of course he has no proof of his magic powers, in fact the evidence is clearly all against him. Never-the-less you are a moron if you do not believe Trixy’s claim about his “wizardry” (at least in his mind). In short, “Tricky’s” trick is an absurd double standard perpetrated at Your expense. (You know that saying about “with friends like that …”?)
Okay, so Trixy can’t refute any of my arguments, I am making him look like a complete and utter fool, and I am seriously interfering with his recruitment drive for the World Church of A-Theism, so he gets offline and organizes a dozen or so of his little A-Theist lackies to follow me around on the forum and basically post a bunch of spam (insults, jokes, off topic crap, sockpuppets galore, silly threads, ask the same contradictory questions over and over, etc., etc.). Then they all whine to the moderators about 8 or 9 times and try and get me banned.
To this day you will notice there are always at least a couple of derogatory threads with my name in them, ALL started by fanatical members of the Cult of A-Theism. It seems that every other week the moderators are forced to move some a-Theist insult thread off to the hidden recesses of the forum.
No … Trixy and his little A-Theists friends aren’t interested in Skepticism at all. They are religious fanatics from the cynical cult of pessimism. Plain and simple. Tricky is the biggest liar on this forum Darling. He has stated in word and demonstrated by deed that he is an individual who believes there will be no ultimate consequences for his actions. If he can benefit by harming you, then by his own logic he will.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
you spout the same nonsense over and over again, what makes you think you are worth new material?
Like I said, i don't really fathom why you persist in non-responding to all my post other than out of desperate fear, insanity, or a combination of the two.
Like I said, i don't really fathom why you persist in non-responding to all my post other than out of desperate fear, insanity, or a combination of the two.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
You are right, Franko. I do post the same nonsense over and over again. Of course, that "nonsense" is your exact words. Also, I try to put something new in each time I post an update. I do this as a service to those who are having a hard time understanding Logical Deism. You would be doing a great favor to them by correcting the list. Why is it that you refuse to do so?Franko said:
Call it a mission. I am your nemesis. I am the one poster that you will not drive away with your drivel and insults. I will make sure that your own words are preserved accurately so that you cannot hide from them. You cannot escape. All you can do is cry and call names. Carry on.Franko said:
Ohh please! You are more like my trained monkey. You follow me around draw a lot of extra attention to me, my posts, and my ideas, you make a mockery of your own religious beliefs – not mine. Plus you constantly repost the highlights of logical deism. You are like a walking billboard. All I need to get you to do is quote me in your sig, and I’ll have the trifecta.
Unlike yourself, I am not ashamed of the things I believe, that is why I don’t mind discussing them. I can explain why I believe in my “God”. You are the one who cannot explain the things he believes or why you dogmatically cling to your deity “free willy” based on no evidence.
Do I look like I’m trying?
You are an imbecile trixy. You are a lying hypocrite. Here’s why …
Since its been over a year, and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs, and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again, what do you want me to say? If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs – some evidence – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious. I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed Tricky, perhaps you should run along then? I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?
Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.
What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!
What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!
--------------------------
What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!
What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.
When are you going to explain what the "YOU" is that is making the "decisions"??? I thought that according to Materialism there was no "YOU"? I thought that "YOU" were nothing more then a collection of Atoms?
Why do you believe that the atoms in your brain aren't controlled by the laws of Physics, Trixy? You never seem to want to explain this? What are you hiding A-Theist? Are you embarrassed to tell us what you believe?
Tricky
Briefly immortal
LOL. Who's got who trained?
Tricky
Briefly immortal
BZZT. You already lost, Franko, back around the middle of January. Apparently you don't remember when I performed this experiment using your buddy Wraith as a subject. I must say, Wraith came through like a champ.Franko said:
From this simple request, I gathered
the evidence that wraith was using free will. His own words were:
Thus, as anyone can see, I have presented evidence for the ability to make conscious choices between perceived, available options, which is my definition of free will.
Can we have your next lie, Franko? Why don't you claim, that I have never defined "God"? Why don't you claim, as you have done before, that I have never defined "free will". Oops. Just did it again right in this post. I would advise you to hold off for at least one or two posts before you use that lie again.
Trixy, I am a bit confused.
How is the Wraith’s “choosing of the 33” evidence for your magic power?
By what Logic do you claim to know that he could have possible told you some other number? In fact, I once overheard a woman ask the Wraith that same question in a bar, and he gave the same exact answer then (33)!
Does this mean that The John Edwards Show is evidence that there is an afterlife and Dead people can communicate with us through the Wizard Edwards?
How is the Wraith’s “choosing of the 33” evidence for your magic power?
By what Logic do you claim to know that he could have possible told you some other number? In fact, I once overheard a woman ask the Wraith that same question in a bar, and he gave the same exact answer then (33)!
Does this mean that The John Edwards Show is evidence that there is an afterlife and Dead people can communicate with us through the Wizard Edwards?
Tricky
Briefly immortal
So I noticed.Franko said:
It's not evidence of magic power. It's evidence of free will, which is in no way magic.
Isn't that amazing! So I guess it is fate because Wraith only knows one number! Wow, what a stunning rebuttal!
No, you dolt. It is evidence that elves are making camp in your laundry hamper. Geez! Some guys just don't understand logic.
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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Franko wrote:
And what has it to do with the discussion? Even if "Wraith" always answered 33, there would still be no reason, except "his" free choice. No, dont dream up some reason for "Wraith" choosing it, since by "his" own admission, it was chosen "for no particular reason".
Hans
Bzzzzzt! Self-contradiction. You have more than once declared that you and Wraith are the same person. Now you say you are not. Which of those two mutually exclusive statements is a lie?
And what has it to do with the discussion? Even if "Wraith" always answered 33, there would still be no reason, except "his" free choice. No, dont dream up some reason for "Wraith" choosing it, since by "his" own admission, it was chosen "for no particular reason".
Hans
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Yeah, Wraith. That's hilarious. A long, vulgar screed that Franko borrowed from another thread.wraith said:hahaha!
DAM!
keep em coming!
Now, if you have recovered from you amusement at Franko's brilliant repartee, would like to continue our discussion where we left off. Since I know you don't like to scroll, I'll reproduce it here for you.
***********
Whether it lands heads or tails is based on my history? That certainly is an interesting proposition. Care to back it up with evidence. I have flipped numerous coins and they seem to show a random distribution of heads and tails. I guess my history changes dramatically every second.wraith said:
Yes, wraith, I know your catch phrase. But you still have not shown how the outcome of the coin flip is based on the past. I can think of ways you might argue this, but you haven't used them yet, and I'm not going to give you hints. Try thinking on your own.
So one analogy fails and you must dodge the question by trying another one? As I say, most things are determined by MPB, but a few aren't. I have already shot down the "traffic light" scenario. Unlike you, I get tired of repeating myself.If you dont like fire Trixy, then maybe you prefer this traffic light example instead?
Hint. Try demonstrating some evidence instead of analogies.
If you had control in the sense of being able to order them around, yes. But if you had control in the sense making sure they obey the rules, no. You are proposing an entity that is able to "order atoms around". You have not shown anything to support this proposition.
Really. Then you can explain the mechanism for gravity? It's Nobel Prize time.It's all in the Gravity
What line? Why are you still avoiding talking about The List? They are your beliefs, are they not? If not, tell me which ones are not.The line itself would be good Trix
Sure I'd consider it, if you could provide some evidence. But unconscious things have gravity, so I'd say the evidence is going to be hard to find.
I have no emotional attachment to this theory, but I have to admit it is well supported. The reverse theory (consciousness makes matter) is not only unsupported but self-contradictory.
It is one possibility that cosmologists have put forth. It is not a belief, because we have no evidence for it, however it is logically consistant. That doesn't mean it's true.What else would you call a timeless period?
Thats your belief is it not?
I'd probably call it a timeless "state", thus avoiding the self-contradiction of using a measurement of time (period) to describe timelessness.
And where does that causal consciousness come from? You are merely adding another layer of mystery because you cannot acknowledge you have no explanation for the first layer. Somewhere in your creation story, you have to have something that doesn't have a cause. For Franko, it is the Progenitor Solipsist. For me it is the universe itself. What is it for you?
And can you answer a question directly instead of making a non-sequitur? If dream matter is energy that we interpret as matter, what is energy that we interpret as energy? Is it "dream energy"?
I see you are trying to shove the whole "dream matter" issue under the table by not discussing it. I can't blame you, for it is a silly concept. However, you could be forthright and admit that you were just making it up. Somehow, I don't expect that.
That equation is for normal matter. As far as I know, there is no equation for "dream matter". Are you then admitting that dream matter is no different from ordinary matter? Why did you propose it then? Oh, right. Because you were cornered in the syllogism thing.
And anyone who would say that rocks are the only kind of matter that exists is a loony toon. Guess what, wraith. There are many kinds of matter, all with different properties. Also, there's a little thing called "evolution". Back to beginner's science class for you.
More non-sequiturs, I see. Do you somehow imagine this stuff you are babbling is addressing the issue?
It would depend on how you define consciousness. Even one-celled animals are able to sense light. Are they conscious?
Then open a new window for me, wrath. Give me a demonstrable example of consciousness creating matter. I have already given you one for matter making consciousness, but since you have shown a remarkably poor memory, I will summarize again.
A human zygote becomes more conscious as it adds matter to it's neurologic system.
Which brings up another interesting question. When does the graviton enter a human? At conception? Are they all clustered around, each betting on one sperm? (They must be associated with the sperm, since we know that gravitons have gender and the sperm determines the baby's gender.) Does this mean that male gametes have gravitons but female ones do not?
First you would have to demonstrate that I was the sole consciousness in the universe. How would you do that?
According to me, no. According to you, yes. (My graviton would still be around, exchanging information).
Okay, we have yet more info about "dream matter". It only exists if you think matter makes consciousness. Does this mean that for Logical Deists, there is no such thing as "dream matter"? Really wraith. Just admit you made it up and you can stop tap dancing. No one will think less of you, in fact, just the opposite.
And who genererates the "Higher Power"? And who generates the power that generates the "Higher Power", ad. infinitum? It's turtles all the way down, sonny.
wraith
Muse
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Tricky said:
here we go again
ok Trix and Hans...this is how it works...
I perceived a benefit to actually ANSWER the question properly....notice how I didnt answer the question by saying "263874" or "bunny rabbit"
also, I perceived a benefit by "choosing" my initial thought
Secondly, my history gave me the ability to work out what "pick a number between 1 and 100" meant. Due to maths and english, lets say.
My history taught me:
what a number was
what the question meant
why I should answer the question in the way that I did
It all looks determined to me.
SO, I ask, how is my initial "choice" to select 33 evidence for free-will?
If I said to you "think of a fighter jet"
is your inital thought evidence for free-will?
If I said to you "think of a turbeokfld"
what is your initial thought?
I bet it was something like
"wtf is that?"
"or what the hell is he on about"
use your "free-will" and tell me what you think of it/him/her/them....
muhaha
Lets say we have a whole series of random questions like this:
Pick a “random” number between 1 and 100.
Pick a “random” color.
Pick a “random” female name.
Pick a “random” male name.
Etc. etc.
If the answers are truly random and completely magical and unpredictable like You and Trixy and the other A-Theists claim, then why is it that my Wife can predict what my answers will be so much better than You can?
How do you account for that MRC? I thought it was all supernatural? How would some one familiar with me get a better score if it is all “magic”?
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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As usual, Franko, you use a diversion and present a strawman instead of answering the question presented:Franko said:
Bzzzzzt! Self-contradiction. You have more than once declared that you and Wraith are the same person. Now you say you are not. Which of those two mutually exclusive statements is a lie?
Nobody claimed it was magic or random, and you know it. What was demonstrated was that all not all decisions are based on percieved benefit. I dont know about the games you play with your wife (but be careful not to be too predictable, she'll grow tird of you), but what was shown with "Wraith" was that "he" was able to pick a number without any possible knowledge of which number might be beneficial. A deterministic algorithm would have been foiled by that task.
Hans
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Yes, here you go again with another one of your sad attempts to cover for the fact that you used free will and admitted it.wraith said:here we go again
All of those factors may have led to you choosing a number, but you still have not explained how they made you choose "33". Since you like analogies, it is kind of how TLOP work. They limit your choices, but they do not make the choice for you. The factors you mention above limited your choices to choosing a number between 1 and 100, but they did not make the choice. Sorry wraith. That dog won't hunt.
Yes. I have a number of available options to think about. I choose one.
No, my initial thought was something else (I'll tell you if you like). You lose your bet. Free will beats fatalism again.
Okay, since you ask nicely. I thought of a costumed super hero named TurboKid. I have no idea if such a fictional character has already been created by someone else. I just made it up in my mind because the letters looked a little bit like that. A combination of free will and imagination.
Have you ever done any creative writing? Well, according to you it is impossible, since nothing anyone does is creative. In fact, the word "creative" has no meaning in a fatalistic universe. What a dreary place that would be.