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"Living Beyond Our Means..."

Trump's big beautiful bill has nothing to do with this thread.
Yes it does. You believe that politicians should be allowed to run amok with the printing press and would remove all safeguards against political profligacy.

If you want to understand how money is actually created and the role of government debt, Steve Keen explains it in this and other videos.
I have studied a lot of Steve Keen. I understand him a whole lot better than you do.
 
Yes it does. You believe that politicians should be allowed to run amok with the printing press and would remove all safeguards against political profligacy.
I believe that a deficit ceiling would be far more sensible than a debt ceiling. What is it specifically about Trump's bill that you think has anything to do with this thread?
I have studied a lot of Steve Keen. I understand him a whole lot better than you do.
How are you making that determination? Can you answer that question by actually pointing out where what I have written differs substantially from what Steve Keen has said on money creation and government debt?

He thinks that MMT is correct as far as the creation of money, government debt and bonds are concerned, though not about trade deficits. I haven't investigated and thought about the latter enough yet to decide.

As you have studied Steve Keen so thoroughly you will no doubt have an opinion on his suggestion that the government deficit should be equal to growth in GDP divided by the velocity of money. Care to share it?
 
Why does government funding pull workers out of the private sector?

The Unite States, let's say, has eight million construction workers. The government starts a building project, say infrastructure repair, that needs half a million workers. It will need approximately 24 billion in new taxes to pay for it. The taxpayers, corporate and personal, will reduce their spending by that amount on their private projects to pay the taxes. In effect transferring private construction into public construction. Workers simply move from one sector of the economy to another sector preforming the same jobs. You get fewer private houses and more functioning roads and bridges.


Taxes cancel out government spending. It's a simple accounting identity: Spending - Tax Revenue = Deficit.

I was referring to the mechanics of the creation and annihilation operators. I'll try again.


Government spending is largely funded by the creation of money by the central bank, which the government controls. Tax is just used to cancel out most of the money spent into the economy by the government. Without government spending there would be no money to pay tax. The amount of spending that isn't cancelled out by tax is called the deficit and adds to something called government debt.

The central bank does not fund the government of the United States directly. (Nor do other central banks fund their governments directly either.) The Federal Reserve buys a small amount of government bonds by creating an entry in a computer database declaring it money and pays with that.

Securities Held By The Federal Reserve
2024 United States Federal Budget

As you can see, the holdings of treasury securities bought and held by the Federal Reserve doesn't even equal the budget of the United States for one year, which last year was about seven trillion dollars. Almost the entire budget gets funded by personal and corporate taxation with borrowing from the public and overseas governments making up the rest of the funding.

Economically, the Covid-19 virus distorted the economy in a way that caused the Federal Reserve to print up a massive amount of money buying nearly four trillion dollars of government bonds. The media gave a fake name of "greedflation" to resulting inflation from the unnecessary expansion of the monetary base. The Fed realizing its mistake got rid of two trillion dollars of government bonds and pulled money back out of the economy, thus slowing inflation down a bit.


That aside, there is no law that says governments not borrowing from the private sector automatically leads to inflation.

It depends, if an economy grows, either naturally or through emigration, then issuing a small amount of currency does not lead to inflation or significant inflation. Given the current administration of my country which I worry will want to go off the petrodollar reserve currency and print up a round of world wide inflation similar to what Nixon did in the 1970s, I now look upon the gold standard with fondness.


It is not the opposite of MMT.

I keep forgetting that variants of a theory exist. The copy of Mosler's pamphlet mentions that if governments borrow too much and funds that borrowing with money printing you get horrid inflation. I'm sure other variants of MMT exist that ignore that reality.


You're going to have to explain this more because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

In the economy you have savers, businesses and workers, which set aside a percentage of the money they earn. This money, called liquidity, flows back out into the economy in the form of loans for business inventory purchases, construction of houses, industrial equipment purchases, the hiring of workers, getting a college degree, and hundreds of other reasons.

When government steps in and expands its borrowing, it permanently removes liquidity from the system. New borrowers cannot take on new loans for the money and they cannot engage in new economic activity, and the economy shrinks increasing unemployment. (I should note a very rare occurrence during the 1990s when the United States government stopped borrowing funds and savings increased fueling the Internet Boom.)

An extreme example of this was the Greek Debt Crisis back about fifteen years ago when the government their bailed out the banks and assumed a massive debt. It literally vacuumed up all the credit in the country and the economy collapsed. Why they saved the banks I do not know.

As an extreme example, the Greek banks collapsed around 2010 due to bad loans. Instead of acknowledging the loss, closing the bad banks, and starting over, the Greek government bailed out the banks assuming a massive liability and removing almost all the liquidity in the country. The economy went into a sever depression and they probably haven't fully recovered from the mistake.


How does the government crowd out private sector borrowing by not borrowing from the private sector?

The government expands the monetary base, that extra money goes into the banking system and becomes reserves of the various national banks. With this extra money the banks make more loans than usual which creates additional spending in the economy. Because the price determination mechanism, the increase in money pushes prices up so that each dollar purchases less.

Old loans, the majority of the loans in the form of bonds get paid back with these inflated dollars. In essence the money the savers get back from the old loans now has much less purchasing power. New loans made from the old savings cannot supply enough money to keep the economy going at the old level and you get more unemployment with inflation.

The burst of money causes an economic boost, then an economic decline, then savers eventually rebuild their savings slowly and the economy returns to the old equilibrium. A big problem occurs when the government tries to stop the economic decline by printing more money. It gets another boost followed by a bigger decline which it responds by doing more of the same making things even worse.

In Argentina savers because of inflationary policies, among others, have effectively left the banks and seek any alternative to holding money. Unfortunately, their so-called libertarian doesn't understand this simple idea. So I expect more failures.


I agree. If the USA continuously elects economically incompetent leaders then its economy will collapse.

Well, it's a bit too late in the cycle to avoid that now. Both major parties have degenerated to the point of no return. They literally make Count Bin Face in the Unite Kingdom look like a brilliant campaign strategist.


It is just a number. By itself it is meaningless. It's certainly not the worker's life savings.


Government debt matters greatly.

When it passes 100% of the gross domestic product, economic growth rates slow to 3% per year. When it reaches 200% of the gross domestic product, all economic growth essentially stops. (There are exceptions like Japan where the supersaver culture permits such high levels, but I doubt anyone could convince Americans to save anywhere near those levels.)
 
The Unite States, let's say, has eight million construction workers.
At t = 0.

The government starts a building project, say infrastructure repair, that needs half a million workers.
At t > 0. Where t represents time. Time doesn't exist for most economists.

It will need approximately 24 billion in new taxes to pay for it. The taxpayers, corporate and personal, will reduce their spending by that amount on their private projects to pay the taxes.
It will need $0 in taxes to pay for it. It will simply create the money.

In effect transferring private construction into public construction.
The world is a very static and timeless place for most economists stuck in their 19th century paradigm. Fortunately scientists and engineers are trained in the real world of dynamic systems that evolve over time and where forces are almost always changing and shifting systems away from equilibrium.

Workers simply move from one sector of the economy to another sector preforming the same jobs. You get fewer private houses and more functioning roads and bridges.
Firstly, you assume that everyone who wants a job in construction has one. They don't. The central bank and government actively keep the level of unemployment above the (purely theoretical) Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (NAIRU). There is therefore already spare capacity that could be utilised. Secondly, the USA would have no problem getting more construction workers if it wants them. Currently it prefers to deport them. Thirdly, the additional workers would be buying goods and services and paying taxes, thus providing an additional boost to the economy, raising tax revenue and partially or even fully cancelling out the initial deficit.

I was referring to the mechanics of the creation and annihilation operators. I'll try again.

The central bank does not fund the government of the United States directly. (Nor do other central banks fund their governments directly either.) The Federal Reserve buys a small amount of government bonds by creating an entry in a computer database declaring it money and pays with that.

Securities Held By The Federal Reserve
2024 United States Federal Budget

As you can see, the holdings of treasury securities bought and held by the Federal Reserve doesn't even equal the budget of the United States for one year, which last year was about seven trillion dollars. Almost the entire budget gets funded by personal and corporate taxation with borrowing from the public and overseas governments making up the rest of the funding.
Back to front again! The correct statement would be "Almost the entire budget gets cancelled out by personal and corporate taxation". The US government doesn't borrow from anyone. It offers to sell bonds, which the public and institutions want because they have a unique feature compared to any other option: a guaranteed pay out.

Economically, the Covid-19 virus distorted the economy in a way that caused the Federal Reserve to print up a massive amount of money buying nearly four trillion dollars of government bonds. The media gave a fake name of "greedflation" to resulting inflation from the unnecessary expansion of the monetary base. The Fed realizing its mistake got rid of two trillion dollars of government bonds and pulled money back out of the economy, thus slowing inflation down a bit.
The inflation was caused because the US government, advised by economists who barely if ever think about where money is going to end up and the effects of wealth distribution. Consumers who are in the market for super-yachts, private jets or buying up huge amounts of assets with income they've got no other use for, are averaged with those who visit food banks to get enough calories to survive into a "representative agent". It's so staggeringly stupid I'm amazed anyone with an ounce of sense makes it past the first semester of an economics degree before transferring to a subject where at least they try to include important parts of reality in their models.

It depends, if an economy grows, either naturally or through emigration, then issuing a small amount of currency does not lead to inflation or significant inflation. Given the current administration of my country which I worry will want to go off the petrodollar reserve currency and print up a round of world wide inflation similar to what Nixon did in the 1970s, I now look upon the gold standard with fondness.
If an economy is growing then it is essential that the government creates new money (i.e. runs a deficit) to avoid the build up of private debt.

I keep forgetting that variants of a theory exist. The copy of Mosler's pamphlet mentions that if governments borrow too much and funds that borrowing with money printing you get horrid inflation. I'm sure other variants of MMT exist that ignore that reality.
The important part you missed was how "too much" is determined. Too much is when the government spending exceeds the available resources. The total amount of resources available are not fixed and affected by government policy and spending over time.

In the economy you have savers, businesses and workers, which set aside a percentage of the money they earn. This money, called liquidity, flows back out into the economy in the form of loans for business inventory purchases, construction of houses, industrial equipment purchases, the hiring of workers, getting a college degree, and hundreds of other reasons.
This is the loanable funds model. It's wrong. Even the Bank of England says so. I hope you didn't spend too much time or money on learning this nonsense!

When government steps in and expands its borrowing, it permanently removes liquidity from the system. New borrowers cannot take on new loans for the money and they cannot engage in new economic activity, and the economy shrinks increasing unemployment. (I should note a very rare occurrence during the 1990s when the United States government stopped borrowing funds and savings increased fueling the Internet Boom.)
Complete rubbish and contradicted by the historical record. E.g., 1920-1930 US government debt reduced 36%; Great depression started in 1929. There's a pattern of government running surpluses to "balance the books" and then serious depressions occurring.

A government with a fiat currency does not borrow (in any meaningful sense of the word) from anyone when its debt is denominated in its own currency that it has an unlimited supply of.

An extreme example of this was the Greek Debt Crisis back about fifteen years ago when the government their bailed out the banks and assumed a massive debt. It literally vacuumed up all the credit in the country and the economy collapsed. Why they saved the banks I do not know.

As an extreme example, the Greek banks collapsed around 2010 due to bad loans. Instead of acknowledging the loss, closing the bad banks, and starting over, the Greek government bailed out the banks assuming a massive liability and removing almost all the liquidity in the country. The economy went into a sever depression and they probably haven't fully recovered from the mistake.
Countries in the Eurozone have given up having sovereign currencies and become currency users rather than currency issuers. That was the root cause of the Greek Debt Crisis, and the problems Ireland and Spain have had too.

The government expands the monetary base, that extra money goes into the banking system and becomes reserves of the various national banks. With this extra money the banks make more loans than usual which creates additional spending in the economy. Because the price determination mechanism, the increase in money pushes prices up so that each dollar purchases less.
Ah, the static supply and demand curves! I wondered when they'd appear!

Old loans, the majority of the loans in the form of bonds get paid back with these inflated dollars. In essence the money the savers get back from the old loans now has much less purchasing power. New loans made from the old savings cannot supply enough money to keep the economy going at the old level and you get more unemployment with inflation.

The burst of money causes an economic boost, then an economic decline, then savers eventually rebuild their savings slowly and the economy returns to the old equilibrium. A big problem occurs when the government tries to stop the economic decline by printing more money. It gets another boost followed by a bigger decline which it responds by doing more of the same making things even worse.

In Argentina savers because of inflationary policies, among others, have effectively left the banks and seek any alternative to holding money. Unfortunately, their so-called libertarian doesn't understand this simple idea. So I expect more failures.

Well, it's a bit too late in the cycle to avoid that now. Both major parties have degenerated to the point of no return. They literally make Count Bin Face in the Unite Kingdom look like a brilliant campaign strategist.
Again, your using the loanable funds model. It's wrong, so all your conclusions are wrong, or at best correct by accident.

Government debt matters greatly.

When it passes 100% of the gross domestic product, economic growth rates slow to 3% per year. When it reaches 200% of the gross domestic product, all economic growth essentially stops. (There are exceptions like Japan where the supersaver culture permits such high levels, but I doubt anyone could convince Americans to save anywhere near those levels.)
It's true, except when it's not true. Sounds conclusive to me!
 
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Just in case you forgot, the question was, "which government simply creates/prints the money first when it spends money"?
Show me the time stamps where these videos answer that question.
The precise mechanisms will vary by country, but in general a government is legally required to issue bonds to cover deficit spending. The central bank can control the interest rate on those bonds and there are always buyers for them. I don't want this thread to get bogged down in technical details.

Let's say the government doesn't spend more than it taxes back and that all new money is created by loans from private banks. Under these conditions private debt explodes because private banks are paid fees, interest and the principal, which ends up as a transfer of wealth from the productive sector to the financial sector, who buy assets. Asset prices rise which increases the costs of production, which requires larger loans from private banks. The cycle continues until the bubble bursts.

As the economy grows debt grows. The only entity in the economy that can sustain unlimited debt is the government because it has an unlimited supply of money.
 
It will need $0 in taxes to pay for it. It will simply create the money.
The precise mechanisms will vary by country, but in general a government is legally required to issue bonds to cover deficit spending.
Backdown noted.

Let's say the government doesn't spend more than it taxes back and that all new money is created by loans from private banks.
Let's not since that is a false dichotomy.
 
Backdown noted.
It's not a "backdown", it's describing at a more technical level (as requested) what would happen. The government can still effectively spend as much money as it wants and its central bank will cooperate with it to control interest paid on the bonds issued, by doing things such as buying treasury bonds. Quantitative Easing and Yield Curve Control, all used at times by the USA, UK and Japan, show that creating any amount of money is trivial for a government with its own currency.

Let's not since that is a false dichotomy.
Sounds like you agree that the government must spend money into the economy if it wishes the economy to grow without private debt getting out of control. If so, the only things to discuss are the rate the government can inject money in through spending (i.e. the size of the deficit) rather than the size of the government debt, and what it can spend it on. The former is limited by the real resources. As Keynes pointed out, "Anything we can actually do, we can afford." The argument from those who, for example, don't want to provide more healthcare should be that the resources do not exist in sufficient quantity (e.g., doctors, nurses, hospitals etc.) to do so, rather than that the government cannot afford them. The reason they are not is because those types of arguments are easily knocked down when the government is willing to pay private providers and use (extremely costly in the long term) accounting ruses such as PFI to acquire, create and maintain resources.

A growing economy requires the government to run a deficit. An economy that grows without the government running a deficit is growing private debt and will become ever more susceptible to asset price fluctuations. Note that the government running a deficit is a necessary but not sufficient condition to keep private debt under control in a growing economy. Proper regulation of commercial banks has to be in place as well.
 
Sounds like you agree that the government must spend money into the economy if it wishes the economy to grow without private debt getting out of control.
No. If the base money supply is fixed (like it was in the gold standard days) then there is a limit to how much credit banks can create before borrowers run into difficulty servicing their loans. This puts a brake on economic growth (the economy enters into a period of contraction).

I already pointed out back in post #50 that "the money supply needs to be able to grow to accommodate economic growth" so all you are doing is generating a lot of heat over semantics (since even you have finally admitted that there must be a limit to government deficits).
 
No. If the base money supply is fixed (like it was in the gold standard days) then there is a limit to how much credit banks can create before borrowers run into difficulty servicing their loans. This puts a brake on economic growth (the economy enters into a period of contraction).
History has taught (some of) us that that doesn't work. It results in protracted recessions and depressions, or as you euphemistically describe it "a period of contraction".
I already pointed out back in post #50 that "the money supply needs to be able to grow to accommodate economic growth" so all you are doing is generating a lot of heat over semantics (since even you have finally admitted that there must be a limit to government deficits).
Why should economic growth be tied to how much gold can be mined out of the earth? Why not grains of sand on the beach? Here's a radical idea: Let's limit economic growth and activity to what is physically sustainable based on real world data.

My point isn't that government deficits must be limited, but rather the government deficits must not exceed the resources available in the economy. I.e., the conversation should not be about the size of the government deficit, but whether the resources are available to do what the government wants to do. If not then the government needs to scale back its ambitions and be honest about it. Finding the money is the trivially easy part and shouldn't even be part of the conversation, let alone the main point of contention on whether something can or can't be done.

E.g., as I pointed out to @Solitaire, if the government wanted to invest in infrastructure then there are many unemployed and underemployed US citizens and immigrants who would want to be trained to undertake such work. It seems highly likely that government spending on this would lead to growth rather than inflation.

When politicians use phrases such as "Living beyond our means" they never claim it's because the economy can't do something, but merely that it's too expensive. The reasons they do this are because they possibly do (mistakenly) believe that government debt is the same as private debt and/or they are philosophically opposed to government influencing the direction of the economy. E.g., "Live free or die". Another more nefarious reason may be that they are doing the bidding of wealthy incumbents in the economy who realise their position will be undermined if the government spending seeds growth that makes their products less valuable. The classic case of this being the fossil fuel industry.
 
Why should economic growth be tied to how much gold can be mined out of the earth?
Why ask me that when I have stated that is problematic? Can't you deal with anything but strawman arguments?

My point isn't that government deficits must be limited, but rather the government deficits must not exceed the resources available in the economy.
That is a LIMIT!!!

E.g., as I pointed out to @Solitaire, if the government wanted to invest in infrastructure then there are many unemployed and underemployed US citizens and immigrants who would want to be trained to undertake such work. It seems highly likely that government spending on this would lead to growth rather than inflation.
And what about the more common case where politicians use budgets to finance pork barreling? This is the problem with giving politicians unlimited power to print money. They do it to buy votes regardless of whether the economy can withstand the injection of such cash or not (that is somebody else's problem in the future).
 
Why ask me that when I have stated that is problematic? Can't you deal with anything but strawman arguments?
In which post did you state it was problematic?
That is a LIMIT!!!
The limit is available resources, not a particular size of the deficit. My point was that no politician or mainstream economist ever says what the real limit is and merely talk endlessly about "the size of the deficit", implying that any deficit greater than zero is bad. A sensible critique of government spending would be saying that the deficit exceeds the available resources and will be likely to cause excessive inflation.
And what about the more common case where politicians use budgets to finance pork barreling? This is the problem with giving politicians unlimited power to print money. They do it to buy votes regardless of whether the economy can withstand the injection of such cash or not (that is somebody else's problem in the future).
States and municipalities are currency users and have to balance their budgets. Only the federal government is a currency issuer, thus it would be much easier to set up a politically neutral public body that looks at spending proposals considering the available resources and analyses the effects of government spending on the economy. It's reports would be made public and political parties could then be held accountable for actual irresponsible spending (deficit or not), rather than just scoring points off each other for "running deficits" and "growing the national debt".
 
To hammer home my point about how the public and politicians think and talk about tax and government spending, the first question from a member of the audience on the BBC's Question Time last night was:

"Do we pay enough tax for good public services?"
 
In which post did you state it was problematic?
It is the post you responded to when you asked, "Why should economic growth be tied to how much gold can be mined out of the earth?" (which is the exact opposite to what the post said).

The limit is available resources, not a particular size of the deficit.
More strawmanning. I never said it was a number. I keep pointing out that leaving the ability to print money in the hands of politicians is a dangerous thing to do but you prefer to live in an idealistic world where politicians handle such powers responsibly.
 
It is the post you responded to when you asked, "Why should economic growth be tied to how much gold can be mined out of the earth?" (which is the exact opposite to what the post said).
I'm confused by what you said. You replied 'No' when I said that it sounded like you agreed that the government needs to spend money into a growing economy to prevent private debt getting out of control. You then went on to describe a fixed money supply as controlling private debt (which it doesn't, but whatever). You then said that the money supply needs to be able to grow to accommodate economic growth. So where does the new money come from if not from the government (via its central bank)?
More strawmanning. I never said it was a number. I keep pointing out that leaving the ability to print money in the hands of politicians is a dangerous thing to do but you prefer to live in an idealistic world where politicians handle such powers responsibly.
I responded by saying that a politically independent public body would assess government spending proposals to keep politicians in check. Why do you think such a body would not be sufficiently effective?
 
My point isn't that government deficits must be limited, but rather the government deficits must not exceed the resources available in the economy. I.e., the conversation should not be about the size of the government deficit, but whether the resources are available to do what the government wants to do. If not then the government needs to scale back its ambitions and be honest about it. Finding the money is the trivially easy part
The tricky part is knowing what resources are actually available. That's how Venezuela got into trouble.
a politically independent public body would assess government spending proposals to keep politicians in check. Why do you think such a body would not be sufficiently effective?
How do you know it would be? And if you do know, how do you deal with all the people who don't believe you?

Also how does this address the problem of what the spending is for? Last year the US Federal government spent 47% of its discretionary budget on defense, and a further 8% on veterans benefits. That means more that half goes to the military, dwarfing other things such as health (7%) and education (4%). So the problem isn't so much how much is being spent as what it's being spent on. How does your independent body address this? The answer, it can't without being political and therefore not independent.
 
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How does your independent body address this? The answer, it can't without being political and therefore not independent.
A regulatory body wouldn't tell the government what to spend money on nor how to tax its citizens. It would be limited to setting the permitted size of a government deficit and saying how much of the deficit can be funded by borrowing and how much can be funded by printing money. The body would presumably take into account the nature of the government budget when it makes its decisions.
 

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