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Let's talk about Demons.

arthwollipot said:
That you disagree with them does not mean that they aren't experts. And, remember, we are talking specifically about interpretation of the Bible.

The one who was called as a witness in the specific incident that we are talking about.

I'm very well aware of your general disgust and arrogant condescension towards all aspects of religion. You don't need to come here to post an anti-religion rant when we are talking about a specific piece of religious interpretation. That's like barging in on a discussion about who makes the best steak and ranting about veganism. No-one cares about your opinion. Can we go back to discussing the subject without interruption now?
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Well I care about The Atheist's opinion arthwollipot.
 
arthwollipot said:
That you disagree with them does not mean that they aren't experts. And, remember, we are talking specifically about interpretation of the Bible.
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Nope.

My point is they disagree with each other, or did you miss the bit about the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Bretheren and the Methodist?

arthwollipot said:
I'm very well aware of your general disgust and arrogant condescension towards all aspects of religion. You don't need to come here to post an anti-religion rant when we are talking about a specific piece of religious interpretation.
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Oh dear, you do have it bad, don't you? Is there any irony in a different thread I'm being berated for the exact opposite situation.

The point was being made about whether that particular bible "expert" was worth a pinch of salt.

The answer is no.
 
This is well worth watching - a bible expert who lost his faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6PWFvzKl3I


This is in line with Dan Dennet's findings that many clergy lose their faith before they are ordained, whilst studying at the seminary. This he claims is because they are confronted with the very dubious history of the Bible and lose confidence that it really is the unerring word of God.
 
Thor 2 said:
Yes indeed and speak with such authority about these demon guys.

I am a bit disappointed I can't get a theist to give me a reasonable explanation about where demons come from. We have had it suggested they were all angels and jumped ship with the Devil. This I have heard/read about before but raises a couple of questions.

- How many of these defective angels did God make? It just doesn't look good on God's C.V.

- Were not all angels created equal? How come we have the big nasty one, the Devil, and a heap of smaller demon guys.
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Rats! Just can't seem to get a theist to weigh in on this one.

Got some feed back from fellow atheists and thanks for that but no theist input.
 
Thor 2 said:
Rats! Just can't seem to get a theist to weigh in on this one.

Got some feed back from fellow atheists and thanks for that but no theist input.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I would call myself a theist, but nor am I an atheist either. I suppose I am still somewhere in between, wrestling with all the questions. I was raised Southern Baptist, though not in any way that would be called fundamentalist.

To answer your questions, based on my churches teachings:

Demons are fallen angels.

How many there are is unclear.

All angels are not created equal. Different ones are given different characteristics, tasks, and jobs. Michael is referred to as an archangel, for example. Obviously, the Devil is depicted at several points as God's primary antagonist, but exactly why him and not someone else is not as clear. It could be that he is the most powerful, the most convincing, or he was simply the first and thus the defacto leader.
 
Thor 2 said:
Rats! Just can't seem to get a theist to weigh in on this one.

Got some feed back from fellow atheists and thanks for that but no theist input.
Click to expand...


Perhaps theists don't claim to have all the details and all the answers. Do atheists have them all?
 
Shiner said:
How else would they justify their existence?
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At least Jews - who are after all responsible for 2/3 of the bible - recognise it in themselves.

One of the most famous Jewish sayings is "Two people, three opinions" when talking about the Torah.

I'm still waiting to hear how the popes of the two main branches of popery agree with each other so much, and I'd say both of them could be considered experts.

I mean, look at this vast crowd in Georgia to see the Catholic pope - there are almost dozens of people in a stadium built for 30,000.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...ubs-pope-francis-georgia-161001161658569.html
 
simonxlong said:
I don't know that I would call myself a theist, but nor am I an atheist either. I suppose I am still somewhere in between, wrestling with all the questions. I was raised Southern Baptist, though not in any way that would be called fundamentalist.

To answer your questions, based on my churches teachings:

Demons are fallen angels.

How many there are is unclear.

All angels are not created equal. Different ones are given different characteristics, tasks, and jobs. Michael is referred to as an archangel, for example. Obviously, the Devil is depicted at several points as God's primary antagonist, but exactly why him and not someone else is not as clear. It could be that he is the most powerful, the most convincing, or he was simply the first and thus the defacto leader.
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Yes well thanks for that. Someone else, an atheist, mentioned the fallen angels thing too, which is what I had heard before.

Also got some input, also from an atheist, that 1 in three angels turn out to be fallen ones. Not a good strike rate for God. A god that makes things perfect.:rolleyes:

One would think that God would give in after all these blunders in the past but he then goes on to make man.:confused:

Given that he does not make all angels equal does he make all men equal?
 
MostlyDead said:
Perhaps theists don't claim to have all the details and all the answers. Do atheists have them all?
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Yes atheists seem to have a better handle on it than theists for sure. :)

I just want to get theists to think about this stuff, because it is an extreme bit of silliness. They just shy away from it however, and cling desperately to their faith.
 
Way back when I was a young Catholic lad, in the 50s, we were dutifully taught about angels, and had to memorize all of the different types and "choirs" that were all part of Catholic theology of the time.

I don't remember but smidgeons... "Seraphim", "Cherubim"......There were quite a lot. At the time, I don't recall much specific instruction on the "war in Heaven"; they sort of glossed over the whole thing for us elementary-school kids.
However, they did identify Lucifer as the chief "rebel" who (out of pride, always a favorite Christian sin) went against God and was cast down by Michael, along with his rebel angels who thus became his minions (demons) in Hell.

Cracking good story, really, if you don't look too closely. We do recall that the whole thing was made up out of whole cloth much later in history than say, the Gospels, and that somehow "Lucifer" was rather morphed into the figure of "Satan"....Which was then sort of retro-morphed into the original figure mentioned in the Old Testament as "The Tempter"....The fellow who annoyed Job and who tempted Jesus in the desert....Evidently at that point a sort of minion of God rather than the symbol of pure evil that would be Satan.
(Who incidentally in the art of the time looked remarkably like certain popular Pagan gods.....Fancy that.)
 
Thor 2 said:
Someone else, an atheist, mentioned the fallen angels thing too, which is what I had heard before.

Also got some input, also from an atheist, that 1 in three angels turn out to be fallen ones.
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What the atheists who answer these questions are giving you is the theistic answer from the theisms we are familiar with. I don't get why you're acting as if any of this were some kind of mystery.

Thor 2 said:
Given that he does not make all angels equal does he make all men equal?
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Obviously not: not only different physical abilities and intelligence and personalities, and even born to different wealth/resources, but also free will to make their own separate independent decisions. Why act as if you've never heard of this stuff before? We're all inundated with these ideas all of the time, both theists and atheists, and even atheists' knowledge of the bare basics like this comes from theists anyway, so why pretend there's a difference?

Thor 2 said:
I just want to get theists to think about this stuff, because it is an extreme bit of silliness. They just shy away from it however, and cling desperately to their faith.
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Failure to appear in front of you at a clap of your hands to play a kindergarten-level trivia game is not desperate clinging. It's just either not even seeing the demand in the first place... or noting how strangely you're behaving and not feeling like playing along just to see what form the obvious lame "gotcha" you're trying to set up eventually gradually plays out... or figuring that even if you could possibly somehow not already know this stuff (despite being able to read & write the language of a culture where it's ubiquitous and unavoidable), these "questions" are so easy & basic that someone else can get it for them anyway, like if someone were asking "Hey, what's the name of that big area off to the west from Canada, and why can't I get a Canadian to answer this for me; why are Canadians hiding from this subject?!".
 
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MostlyDead said:
Perhaps theists don't claim to have all the details and all the answers. Do atheists have them all?
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No, that is just wrong. Atheists are entirely comfortable to state right out that "I don't know" because one cannot know everything.

The true blue believers have no issue claiming that they know all of the answers, falling as usual into one of their very own seven sins. goddidit. That is all they have.
 
Delvo said:
What the atheists who answer these questions are giving you is the theistic answer from the theisms we are familiar with. I don't get why you're acting as if any of this were some kind of mystery.
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You totally miss the point. I want theists to think about it and give explanations for it, in the hope they may see how silly it all is ........ got it?
 
Bikewer said:
Way back when I was a young Catholic lad, in the 50s, we were dutifully taught about angels, and had to memorize all of the different types and "choirs" that were all part of Catholic theology of the time.

I don't remember but smidgeons... "Seraphim", "Cherubim"......There were quite a lot. At the time, I don't recall much specific instruction on the "war in Heaven"; they sort of glossed over the whole thing for us elementary-school kids.
However, they did identify Lucifer as the chief "rebel" who (out of pride, always a favorite Christian sin) went against God and was cast down by Michael, along with his rebel angels who thus became his minions (demons) in Hell.

Cracking good story, really, if you don't look too closely. We do recall that the whole thing was made up out of whole cloth much later in history than say, the Gospels, and that somehow "Lucifer" was rather morphed into the figure of "Satan"....Which was then sort of retro-morphed into the original figure mentioned in the Old Testament as "The Tempter"....The fellow who annoyed Job and who tempted Jesus in the desert....Evidently at that point a sort of minion of God rather than the symbol of pure evil that would be Satan.
(Who incidentally in the art of the time looked remarkably like certain popular Pagan gods.....Fancy that.)
Click to expand...


No doubt it is a good story. Someone should make a movie about it. With the special effects they can do now it would be a breeze.

Interesting that Michael had so much grunt back then, but fades away later. Seems somewhat inconsistent, but then there's nothing new about this, in relation to religion is there?
 
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