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Let's talk about Demons.

Earlier in the thread we had some input about where demons came from, and the general consensus seemed to be, they were fallen angels in league with the Devil. Not physical in the sense that they were made of matter but definitely beings of some sort.


Religion has three main interdependent elements: narratives, practices, and experiences. What you're essentially pointing out here is that with regard to a particular concept (in this case demons), those three elements might not be in perfect agreement. That's a valuable insight. It can also be applied to e.g. grace, sin, death, salvation, angels, healing, heaven, or God.

Skeptics tend to overestimate the importance of the narratives or their qualities (e.g. whether they are internally self-consistent, or genuinely scriptural, or morally good) while underestimating the importance of practices and experiences. Hence, are constantly surprised and frustrated at the failure of religion to disintegrate when the narratives are ably challenged, even when the narratives are acknowledged false or incomplete or "not literal" by adherents.

The prevailing Christian narrative of (the origin of) demons might speak of fallen angels (which doesn't come from the Bible but from Milton and other sources), while the practices regarding demons (such as repelling them by ringing bells, or exorcism) treats them more as spooky monster parasites, and supposed direct experiences of demons (such as overcoming addiction) feel like cravings and strong destructive emotions. These are not terribly consistent; why would a fallen angel want to possess a human; why would a spooky monster parasite feel like a craving for a chemical; and so forth?

Any answers to those questions only add retcon details to the narrative element. (Fallen-angel demons hate humans because they're jealous of God's favorable covenants with humanity, making them want to prey on weaker humans and drive them away from salvation!) This happens because no amount of criticizing the narrative really has much impact on people's perceived experiences, nor on practices. There are many churches that have ditched (or never had) the superstitious belief that the sound of bells drives demons away, but most of them still ring bells because that's a Christian-y church-y thing to do.
 
Religion has three main interdependent elements: narratives, practices, and experiences. What you're essentially pointing out here is that with regard to a particular concept (in this case demons), those three elements might not be in perfect agreement. That's a valuable insight. It can also be applied to e.g. grace, sin, death, salvation, angels, healing, heaven, or God.

Skeptics tend to overestimate the importance of the narratives or their qualities (e.g. whether they are internally self-consistent, or genuinely scriptural, or morally good) while underestimating the importance of practices and experiences. Hence, are constantly surprised and frustrated at the failure of religion to disintegrate when the narratives are ably challenged, even when the narratives are acknowledged false or incomplete or "not literal" by adherents.

The prevailing Christian narrative of (the origin of) demons might speak of fallen angels (which doesn't come from the Bible but from Milton and other sources), while the practices regarding demons (such as repelling them by ringing bells, or exorcism) treats them more as spooky monster parasites, and supposed direct experiences of demons (such as overcoming addiction) feel like cravings and strong destructive emotions. These are not terribly consistent; why would a fallen angel want to possess a human; why would a spooky monster parasite feel like a craving for a chemical; and so forth?

Any answers to those questions only add retcon details to the narrative element. (Fallen-angel demons hate humans because they're jealous of God's favorable covenants with humanity, making them want to prey on weaker humans and drive them away from salvation!) This happens because no amount of criticizing the narrative really has much impact on people's perceived experiences, nor on practices. There are many churches that have ditched (or never had) the superstitious belief that the sound of bells drives demons away, but most of them still ring bells because that's a Christian-y church-y thing to do.


Thanks again for your in depth observations Myriad.

I wonder about this though and tend to be more optimistic about where we are headed and the impact of challenging theistic belief.

You mentioned in a previous post:

Protestant churches that have been dying in the U.S. for decades now, while more fundamentalist denominations with more simplistic theological outlooks have thrived.

It's all about percentages I suppose. What percentage of those leaving the Protestant churches are going to the fundie ones? As the total number who are now claiming to have no religion even in the USA is rising, certainly not all.

Looking outside the USA, where the fundie phenomenon is a pale reflection of that in the US, the drop in theistic belief has been dramatic, and I would think to some degree because of the input of prominent atheists. Perhaps more people than you think, are influenced by discussion about some of the silliest bits of theism?
 
This is certainly true.

No, it isn't.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that regardless of the particular interpretation, actual (not metaphorical) demons are always spiritual beings, not actual corporeal, substantial ones that are made of matter like you and me. I'm pretty sure no-one has ever claimed that you can literally punch a demon in its face.


Oh, no argument about that but separate matter-less beings non the less - like our souls.:D

I suppose God himself is a no matter being also, but then we were made in his image weren't we? All to confusing.:boxedin:
 
Oh, no argument about that but separate matter-less beings non the less - like our souls.:D

I suppose God himself is a no matter being also, but then we were made in his image weren't we? All to confusing.:boxedin:
I'm not going to argue with you on that one. :p
 

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