Lets see if i got Sunder right on WTC7

[A W Smith]

Especially Unions. There was a small Union dustup here in Philly where some standards for sewer construction were being revised, possibly downward (actually, it was more the testing facility being toned down) and the union for the Water Department got wind of it from their employees and made one heck of a fuss.

Why is it important? Well, the fuss was started by some WD employees who were concerned about the standards. Why? Not really certain. Given that any lowering of the standards would happen in rebuilt sewers they were unlikely to see again in their working lifetime there was no immediate threat to them. Yet they went to their Union fast as all get up.

And these are Water Department employees, in a city smaller than NYC.

Yet they complained, about potential safety problems that would not be seen for at least a generation if at all.

Yet roundhead would have us believe that with a few laughable threats to a 'pension' manages to stop Firefighters from standing up for their brothers who were murdered. By his own statements, roundhead makes the FDNY workers far less brave than a bunch of Water Department workers in Philly.

Then he has the never to turn around and say he considers them brave and how dare we suggest otherwise?

How dare you, roundhead. How dare you.

well theres the difference between brave men who risk their lives and anonymous coward truther internet punks.

 

[Wolrab]

I would observe that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has previously made the claim

Do you mean "For the first time in history"?

 

[ktesibios]

Once again roundhead proves he has no experience in the real world.

He doesn't understand how unions work, either firefighters, police or construction.

Indeed. As I pointed out somewhere above, when the city decided to reduce the FDNY presence at Ground Zero because they had concluded that there was no longer any hope of saving lives and that site cleanup should be the priority, the firefighters didn't take it lying down.

They screamed bloody murder, they demonstrated, they fought the police.

The intrepid revolutionaries of the twoof movement, OTOH, seem content with such fearless acts as chanting "murderer" outside an old man's office, heckling politicians and celebrities and tangling with girls in wheelchairs.

IMHO, the comparison says a lot about who is willing to be told what to do and think, and about the distribution of the "courage of one's convictions" among these two populations.

 

[The Big Dog]

Regarding one quick little point...7 burned for what, 8 hours, correct. Why would it not make sense that firetrucks 100 miles away, and full of water, couldnt, at 50mph, get there in roughly 2 hours, if the call was made. Those closer than 100 miles obviously sooner.

Dear lord, what a profoundly ridiculous thing to say. Why assume only 50 mph, roundhead, why not 100? Or even faster on magical ponies?

By the way, Roundhead, establishing a perimeter and containing the spread of a large fire is a very well known firefighting technique. It was done recently in my area when a tanker truck flipped over, and a few years ago in a massive warehouse fire. These are less than five miles from my house. The fact that you are incredulous about this is a sign only that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Tbone]

By the way, Roundhead, establishing a perimeter and containing the spread of a large fire is a very well known firefighting technique. It was done recently in my area when a tanker truck flipped over, and a few years ago in a massive warehouse fire. These are less than five miles from my house. The fact that you are incredulous about this is a sign only that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Not to mention the main technique of fighting every single forest fire ever.

 

[leftysergeant]

I cant believe you would stoop so low as to state i EVER implied or stated there was any cowardice by ANYBODY involved with the fire dept.

Thats a bald faced lie. Grow up.

Maybe the problem is that we all speak different dialects of English here. Keeping your mouth shut about murder is considered a form of cowardice as most people define it.

Or maybe your language skills are just not as well-developed as they should be.

And nobody suppressed testimony of any of the fire fighters. The press just ignored the whackadoodles who spouted implausible crap.

 

[leftysergeant]

A typical fire tanker truck carries about 1000 gallons of water. A single large hose stream is generally figured to be capable of applying 250 gallons per minute. Do the math.

Not that the fire would be fought with typical hose streams, for the most part, even were water available. The fire department was reluctant to send people into a building which showed serious structural damage, and would probably have used deluge nozzles to attack from outside. They would also have liked to have a few streams available to cover exposures and to attack the fires in the pile. We are, therefore, addressing a need for streams totalling in the tens of thousands of gallons per minute.

That involves tying up the assets of a lot of smaller fire departments for God knows how long. Not a wise idea, if there might be other emergencies in the mean time. Given the absurdity of the day, the number of people getting distracted from cooking by shocking events, I should not be surprised by occassional spikes in the numbers of smaller residential fires.

This is not even to address the havoc that so many heavy vehicles travelling over an already-disrupted traffic grid would occassion.

This is not even a response to be considered seriously.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

This is not even a response to be considered seriously.

Agree. I just didn't feel like typing up a long explanation.

I simply wanted him to see the absurdity of trying to stage dozens of tanker trucks around a 47 story building when the best they could do would be to put one large hose stream per truck on the building for a few minutes.

 

[Minadin]

And yes, i dont believe the govt about 9/11. It obviously makes me a whole lot smarter than most on this site. Why, you say, because you parrots slurp up this fantasy, i dont.

<snipped>

Since you have completely failed to bring any sort of engineering / technical argument as to why the NIST is wrong, and have instead chosen to rely on a slurry of factually baseless, worn out old canards used by the 9/11 conspiracy theorists for the last 3 years, why pretend that this has anything to do with the WTC7 report?

In that vein, the rest of my response will consist of direct quotes to old posts of mine. I don't see that there's anything to be gained by posting anything original if you won't be.

There's a difference between making a simplification for the purposes of modeling something, to make the math easier, and believing that it's actually how it happened. Of course, this point has already been made ad nauseam in this very thread.

Feel free to present some sort of engineering argument instead of hand-waving incredulity at any time.

As I deal with real engineers all-the-freaking-time as a matter of business, I'm used to being wrong sometimes. The difference is that the engineers will tell me how they think I'm wrong, and why.

I don't discriminate who verifiable facts come from so long as they are, in fact, verifiable. Please divulge. As a skeptic I would rather be proven wrong so that I can adjust my position than persist in being wrong out of ignorance.

This is the problem with most conspiracy theorists as far as I can tell, and I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's not any special knowledge any of them possess, but the lack of it, which drives the conspiratorial mind. Among competant professionals in the industries of building design, fire safety, demolition, first responders, and the like, there remains very little that could be described as "unexplained phenomena" as far as the mechanics of the disaster. I would imagine the same would go for experts in military issues or aviation as well.

Most people who aren't experts in one of these areas will base their opinion on what those experts are saying and consider that to be resonable. Perhaps conspiracy theorists differ specifically from your typical citizen in what they consider to be reason.

P.S.

I don't think you know what some of these terms mean.

Actually, the entire basis for language is the fact that definitions of words don't differ from person to person.

 

[roundhead]

Not that the fire would be fought with typical hose streams, for the most part, even were water available. The fire department was reluctant to send people into a building which showed serious structural damage, and would probably have used deluge nozzles to attack from outside. They would also have liked to have a few streams available to cover exposures and to attack the fires in the pile. We are, therefore, addressing a need for streams totalling in the tens of thousands of gallons per minute.

That involves tying up the assets of a lot of smaller fire departments for God knows how long. Not a wise idea, if there might be other emergencies in the mean time. Given the absurdity of the day, the number of people getting distracted from cooking by shocking events, I should not be surprised by occassional spikes in the numbers of smaller residential fires.

This is not even to address the havoc that so many heavy vehicles travelling over an already-disrupted traffic grid would occassion.

This is not even a response to be considered seriously.

Your lunacy has no bounds, what a decietful statement.


There was a fire in a lakefront community about 10 miles from me a few years back.(Large propane explosion that was really nasty)

Units from 13 different communities fought it. This is exactly what happens when a major fire breaks out, units from all over show up to put it out.

This isnt abnormal, this is how its always done.

And guess what, the assets from all those other communities werent concerned about a "possible fire" that might arise while they were gone, they are only concerned with putting out the raging fire they were asked to help with.


If you have a problem with a single word of what i posted as not being the absolute truth, i can only pray that your induction into kindergarden next month inspires you.

 

[WildCat]

Your Units from 13 different communities fought it.

And I'd bet that response was dwarfed by the men and equipment brought to bear by NYC alone on 9/11.

You've run away from questions asked of you, you're a proven liar, why should anyone bother with you?

 

[roundhead]

Not that the fire would be fought with typical hose streams, for the most part, even were water available. The fire department was reluctant to send people into a building which showed serious structural damage, and would probably have used deluge nozzles to attack from outside. They would also have liked to have a few streams available to cover exposures and to attack the fires in the pile. We are, therefore, addressing a need for streams totalling in the tens of thousands of gallons per minute.

That involves tying up the assets of a lot of smaller fire departments for God knows how long. Not a wise idea, if there might be other emergencies in the mean time. Given the absurdity of the day, the number of people getting distracted from cooking by shocking events, I should not be surprised by occassional spikes in the numbers of smaller residential fires.

This is not even to address the havoc that so many heavy vehicles travelling over an already-disrupted traffic grid would occassion.

This is not even a response to be considered seriously.

in your tiny little nano brain, i dont suppose you are aware that trucks carry water aboard, and ladders.

I am unaware of any fires that were real high up in the building.

The fact is, whoever was the local "rep" of the operation that was 9/11, ordered the t0wel thrown in on 7 mighty early, to the chagrin of firefighters who likely would have embarassed the 9/11 planners who would have to demo a building that didnt have any fires.

As the trade center was adjacent to the waterfront, and me just thinking of how to bring water to bear as a layman, i would haveferried fire trucks back and forth fronm Jersey by barge till it was put out, assuming road issues prevented other means being viable.

 

[roundhead]

This directly from the NIST REPORT:



By the time WTC 2 was struck by the second aircraft at 9:03 a.m., many WTC 7 occupants
had already left the building and others had begun a self-evacuation of the building. Shortly after WTC 2
was struck, a firefighter entered WTC 7 from the Washington and Vesey Streets side, connected a hose
line onto the “A” stairwell sprinkler riser and started the Engines pumps.371 At approximately 9:30 a.m.,
FDNY, EMS established a Division for assisting victims at WTC 7.372 An EMS triage center was
established in the lobby of WTC 7 as occupants from WTC 1 and WTC 6 evacuated through WTC 7.373
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city and news that the
Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7.


Among other things in this statement, if there was inside knowledge a third plane was inbound, and there must have been to have it force this huge of an evolution to happen as a result of this threat, why would they be worried, the Otis interceptors couldnt have been more than a couple of minutes away under full power to pick off this threat, remember they were already in the area, having arrived"barely to late" to save the towers.

This official garbage stink to high heaven, clothespins clipped to the noses of Jrefers to squelch the stench notwithstanding.

I await to be pointed to this order being o referenced and the Otis jets vectored to be ready for an incoming plane around the wtc area at this pint.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Your lunacy has no bounds, what a decietful statement.


There was a fire in a lakefront community about 10 miles from me a few years back.(Large propane explosion that was really nasty)

Units from 13 different communities fought it. This is exactly what happens when a major fire breaks out, units from all over show up to put it out.

This isnt abnormal, this is how its always done.

And guess what, the assets from all those other communities werent concerned about a "possible fire" that might arise while they were gone, they are only concerned with putting out the raging fire they were asked to help with.


If you have a problem with a single word of what i posted as not being the absolute truth, i can only pray that your induction into kindergarden next month inspires you.

I don't think anyone is questioning that fire departments have mutual aid agreements with neighboring municipalities.

What is being questioned is your theory that dozens of fire department tanker trucks could be sent to WTC7 to fight a fire that had been burning on multiple floors for a couple of hours (according to your theory).

With no water supplies other than what could be carried on the tanker trucks, your theory makes no sense.

Again, why send tanker trucks carrying a few thousand gallons of water to fight a fire requiring hundreds of thousands of gallons. Might as well get the remaining firefighters to piss on it in unison. It would have about the same chance of saving the building.

 

[roundhead]

And this spear in the heart:


"After New York City officials cut off the water main to the tower Sept. 11, 2001, the building's sprinkler system was unable to function, Dr. Sunder said. This allowed fires across 10 floors to burn uncontrolled for nearly seven hours.
...
"If water had been available, it is likely that sprinklers would have operated and the building may still be here today," he [Sunder] said."




The Govt didnt want 7 to live people, its not even debatable, they wanted to get everybody out of it, pull firefighters from it, let it burn till it appeared somewhat visually viable and plausible to blow it up and blame it on fire.



How anybody with even a double digit IQ cant see this, is beyond me.




Sunder..if water had been available sprinklers would work....this guy is the guy you want to share a plate of slop with

 

[Wolrab]

This directly from the NIST REPORT:



By the time WTC 2 was struck by the second aircraft at 9:03 a.m., many WTC 7 occupants
had already left the building and others had begun a self-evacuation of the building. Shortly after WTC 2
was struck, a firefighter entered WTC 7 from the Washington and Vesey Streets side, connected a hose
line onto the “A” stairwell sprinkler riser and started the Engines pumps.371 At approximately 9:30 a.m.,
FDNY, EMS established a Division for assisting victims at WTC 7.372 An EMS triage center was
established in the lobby of WTC 7 as occupants from WTC 1 and WTC 6 evacuated through WTC 7.373
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city and news that the
Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7.

Isn't this all BEFORE the South Tower collapsed?

 

[dtugg]

And this spear in the heart:


"After New York City officials cut off the water main to the tower Sept. 11, 2001, the building's sprinkler system was unable to function, Dr. Sunder said

Please cite something proving that he actually says this. This would be video or something posted on the wtc.nist.gov site, not a report from infowars or whatever. If you can't do this, I will have to assume that you or whoever you got this from is making it up. From what I gather, Sunder says that the water mains were cut by the twin towers collapsing which makes perfect sense to me and any other reasonable person.

Why do 9/11 deniers have to lie so much?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3969507&postcount=132

BUMP for roundhead...

 

[WildCat]

And this spear in the heart:


"After New York City officials cut off the water main to the tower Sept. 11, 2001, the building's sprinkler system was unable to function, Dr. Sunder said.

Why do you lie so much roundhead? I guess this comes in handy when selling cars, doesn't it?

 

[mrbaracuda]

Did he.. no he didn't just, no he didn't!
Did he really just put words in his mouth?

What a shock! I am truly shocked by this behaviour by someone who is promoting the one and only TROOF! SHOCKED I SAY!