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Let's make America smart again

Mark6 said:
A friend of mine who is Jewish (and has either MS or PhD in Computer Science), voted for Trump because he is convinced that Muslim immigration and the "creeping Sharia" are a far greater threat than, well, anything else. Basically, he bought completely into Mark Steyn's "Eurabia" -- that once a certain portion (20-25%) of population is Muslim, they start ignoring the law of the country they are in because everyone else is too afraid of them, and basically set up Sharia. And he sees Trump, Le Pen, etc. as the only ones who are standing up to this menace.
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Does he have any example of a country where this is the case? Because that sounds like something that would make the news.
 
Maartenn100 said:
I don't think the title is a good title. You are implying that the people who vote for Trump were stupid. That's exactly the denigrating attitude from the elites towards ordinary people that cause them vote for Trump and not for Hillary. This 'We know it better then you' attitude is the main reason why people voted differently this time. Even when it's true that you are smarter, such an attitude will cause resistance.

You must think it this way: people sometimes cannot express why they do not want something. They cannot verbalise their underlying sadness, hurt, ... Underlying their negative attitude is something they want to communicate. There is some 'information' behind it, which you need to find out.

I believe in 'system thinking'. Within the system, some parts are giving feedback to the whole system, they want some focus on their problems.

This feedback, you try to filter out, is information that tells you something about the underlying needs of these people in order to be able to accept your politics.
Try to see behind their attitude and see the sadness or the hurt behind the behavior of negativity.
Talk with them. Try to find out what sadness is in their life and use this information to improve your politics.
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The sadness in their little lives is because they do not have simple jobs they can handle anymore - those went away to more primitive countries while we went to the internet and high tech - that they don't have skills for.

It is also because they do not have anyone they can look down on and be supported on that.

And it is because they are Christian and think we should all be killed or otherwise harmed unless we go with their crap religion (.. as they have lots of sects) .

And it is because they do not want or like real education, they want schools to teach their kids nothing beyond the crap they believe and want others to believe.

They have chosen that path and they deserve it's results. I do not, nor do the intelligent that did vote for reality - but they do having voted for a broken and dead dream where they were important...


Oddly, they could have done something about it if they were willing to drop the stupid - and if they ever do, republicans will be out of business. I hope I will be alive to see that day..and that it is very interesting.
 
Argumemnon said:
Does he have any example of a country where this is the case? Because that sounds like something that would make the news.
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Here is a specific example he gave:

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/10/...tion-raping-10-year-old-due-question-consent/

Difficult to tell why Austrian Supreme Court overturned the rape conviction, but Breitbart et. al. are convinced it is due to spinelessness. And my friend buys it.

BTW, there was a lot of backlash to that court decision:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-sentence-conviction-overturned-a7377491.html

The attack sparked a backlash against migrants in the country, which has since seen support for anti-immigration groups rise and implemented a controversial cap on refugee numbers.

Reports of sexual harassment and attacks by asylum seekers at swimming pools have generated controversy across Europe, sparking a ban on male migrants at one pool in Germany and “vigilante” patrols in Sweden.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Sorry Marteen, but I do think people who supported Trump, for whatever reason, made an ignorant choice.

Either they were conned by the guy, or were naive enough to think putting an incompetent narcissist in charge of the country because they wanted to shake things up, would be peachy.

I am not an elite and this is a skeptic's forum, not a 'can't we all get along' forum. When half the voting public in this country doesn't know how to think critically about their vote for POTUS, there is a serious problem with critical thinking.
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…of course, but the question is…why?

The problem is very simple.

First of all…it’s the United States. For the majority of Trump supporters their world begins and ends at the US border (by contrast…for much of the rest of the world… interdependence is a daily fact of life).

Secondly…it’s simply ignorance. The circumstances and issues of this world are vast and complex. Far too many in the US have seen their ways of life threatened and / or compromised (often in very damaging ways) and they do not understand why. The exact same threats have occurred elsewhere in the world but those communities have mitigated their effects…. usually through direct and indirect government action (education, social programs, health care, etc.). This does not occur in the US (typically as a consequence of the Republican prerogative). People have to fend for themselves to a much greater degree.

…thus…insecurity.

An insecure populace is not going to be amenable to critical thinking. Survival is what matters. Act first…think later (if at all). This time around…they had an opportunity to act…to throw a very real knife (Trump) at the closest thing to a target (the cause of their ‘problems’) they’ve ever been given

…and they took it.

There are only two solutions. One…don’t give ‘them’ another opportunity. Two…engage in a progressive society (mitigate the insecurity). The second option will never happen as long as Republicans hold power and subscribe to their outdated philosophies. Trump may be something of an anomaly…but what matters in politics is winning…and Trump won. It is all-but inevitable that his example will be emulated. Then we will see the degree to which this entire scenario was a ‘perfect-storm’…or climate change.
 
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marplots said:
I don't know... do you guys have anything else to offer? How about a dark-skinned minority mired in poverty and crime? That will make us feel at home.
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Of course! Plenty of that.

Just let us know when you are on the way and we will prepare the spare bedroom. Although if you are a Trump supporter, be prepared to have your arse handed to you by the way of casual ribald heckling.
 
Planigale said:
This is true in the UK as well. The exceptions are Inner London state schools; they despite having a poor and ethnically diverse population including many students with poor English have achieved excellent outcomes. I am unclear how they have done this, but it should be a lesson for other public education systems.
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The thing is, American public schools are not the hellholes that they are universally described as. There are a few really terrible and a few that are outstanding; most are varying degrees of mediocre. The same is true of private schools here; some are great, but most are no better than public schools. And that's with the advantage of getting to choose the students they want to have and the right to only voluntarily release statistical info like standardized test scores and such.

Should we strive for better than mediocre? Absolutely. It is hard when the Republican Party wants to kill public education by the death of 1000 budget cuts.
 
Maartenn100 said:
Critical thinking implies that people's choices are rational. Science (psychology) shows us (with evidence) that people most of the time act irrational.

So you need to listen to them first and try to find out the information behind their negativity. What is the information you can see underneath this negativity?

You must be able to see through it.

And when you are open to listen carefully and take them seriously, you will have more chance to influence them. And then they will be more open for rational reasons.
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What utter hypocrisy! It's people like you that are the problem. Without training in mathematics and physics, you deny the findings of professionals in the field of physics, people who have gained expertise through decades of studying and working. You are no better than vaccination deniers, climate science deniers and intelligent design groupies. It's disrespect for those who have worked hard to gain knowledge and expertise that is part of the problem, the kind of disrespect you demonstrate on a regular basis in this science sub-forum .
 
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Perpetual Student said:
What utter hypocrisy! It's people like you that are the problem. Without training in mathematics and physics, you deny the findings of professionals in the field of physics, people who have gained expertise through decades of studying and working. You are no better than vaccination deniers, climate science deniers and intelligent design groupies. It's disrespect for those who have worked hard to gain knowledge and expertise that is part of the problem, the kind of disrespect you demonstrate on a regular basis in this science sub-forum .
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In all fairness, he does it because no one takes him seriously. The problem is we cannot because he knows NOTHING that would allow us to take him seriously. Not our fault, Not the writer's fault.

In physics particularly the best he can do is parrot what little he follows of popularized but scientific material in book and on the web, but he is completely limited to his interpretation of same and frequently misses what is actually being said - as well as it is not nearly as clear as the math of it - and he either cannot or will not get up the energy/will to learn it so he can follow and properly understand such. We do not have the time to cover what he needs to be competent and he will not go to school/university to try to learn it.

He is stuck in a bad place because of his refusal to learn - yet he thinks he can teach us.

And do not even get me started on the pure crap re: souls/out of body !!!!!!!!
 
Maartenn100 said:
I don't think the title is a good title. You are implying that the people who vote for Trump were stupid. That's exactly the denigrating attitude from the elites towards ordinary people that cause them vote for Trump and not for Hillary. This 'We know it better then you' attitude is the main reason why people voted differently this time. Even when it's true that you are smarter, such an attitude will cause resistance.
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So pointing out flawed logic and non-critical thinking is in and of itself justification for flawed logic and non-critical thinking? This seems awfully convenient. In fact it’s pretty much writing yourself a blank check to buy whatever some crook wants to sell you.

No one is suggesting Trump supports can’t learn how to think critically, in fact just the opposite they are saying they should learn. If they don’t and continue to influence election outcomes to this degree, the US will fail as a democracy and in all likelihood fail as a nation.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
The Fairness Doctrine was revoked.

But even if it weren't, they didn't need to cover hundreds of Trump speeches live, they didn't need to give the Trumpettes a platform day after day without challenging their never-ending spewing of lies.

And they could have covered Clinton honestly instead of making money off ginning up the scandals and constantly reminding us she got low trust results in the polls. They could have done a better job explaining Comey's ruling not to prosecute.

Again, the media is but one of many failures and things/people that have some blame in this.
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I suspect that the process of making America smart again will begin once ridiculously hypocritical and smug tantrums like this have run their course?
 
Maartenn100 said:
I don't think the title is a good title. You are implying that the people who vote for Trump were stupid. That's exactly the denigrating attitude from the elites towards ordinary people that cause them vote for Trump and not for Hillary. This 'We know it better then you' attitude is the main reason why people voted differently this time. Even when it's true that you are smarter, such an attitude will cause resistance.

You must think it this way: people sometimes cannot express why they do not want something. They cannot verbalise their underlying sadness, hurt, ... Underlying their negative attitude is something they want to communicate. There is some 'information' behind it, which you need to find out.

I believe in 'system thinking'. Within the system, some parts are giving feedback to the whole system, they want some focus on their problems.

This feedback, you try to filter out, is information that tells you something about the underlying needs of these people in order to be able to accept your politics.
Try to see behind their attitude and see the sadness or the hurt behind the behavior of negativity.
Talk with them. Try to find out what sadness is in their life and use this information to improve your politics.
Click to expand...
emotion-led decision making is a bad thing, in my opinion.
 
I think if you want to make America smarter you have to start with education. Obviously, what we are doing now doesn't work. We need to find out what works and model that. What are the best performing schools in America (the world, even) and what do they do?

And define what you mean by "smarter." Higher performance in STEM? Higher IQs? What exactly are you shooting for?

I think a good start is by making the profession of Education a more prestige profession. Good teachers who are well paid and happy. When we get the best and brightest attracted to the profession, good things will happen.
 
Education level these days is close to meaningless. I've just graded an exam for my seniors (4th year past high school) in a class of 37. The exam was quite easy, as evidenced by the 4 students who exceeded 100% (I had built in 10 points of bonus). Thus, 11% of this sample population had no problem assimilating, interpreting, and applying the assigned information. In contrast, 16 students (43% of the sample) earned grades of D or F (i.e., they mastered <70% of the material, and that's with the 10 points of built-in bonus). Despite this divide, they'll all likely find some way to graduate and be counted among the "college-educated".

Regardless of education level, the key lies in a populace that 1) cares about discriminating between the factual and the bias-confirming, 2) knows how to seek out information with the potential to be factual, and 3) has the skills to evaluate the information to determine the factual.

Ironically, the course I referenced above places a great deal of emphasis on critical thinking and examining sources of information. People have to actually care about facts to make it stick, however.
 
Trump winning the election signals the fact that America doesn't want to be smart. It doesn't want to educate its citizens as a way to adapt to present and future automatization which will make increasing amounts of Americans jobs redundant. If anything most other developed countries are far ahead of America when it comes to adapting to the future.

Instead America wants to turn the clock back to them good old times when "working class" professions that didn't require any significant education still payed well and offered plenty of jobs to entire communities. Forget about embracing new technology and increased efficiency cause America still needs to feed it's poor and backwards rural population by keeping old, uneconomic, inefficient and environmentally unsound practices.
 
Arcade22 said:
America . . . doesn't want to educate its citizens as a way to adapt to present and future automatization which will make increasing amounts of Americans jobs redundant.
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Correct. Millions of people in this country blame "Mexicans" for taking all their excellent jobs away, such as roofing, landscaping, dishwashing, and changing sheets in motels.

The actual jobs people think of with respect to American manufacturing have been lost to computers and robotic arms. We're not even talking about this, let alone doing anything to address it.
 
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