Let us have a fact check.


FACT the WTC unlike the windsor tower did not have concrete inner core and were, unlike the Windsor were hit by large planes moving at high speed.

FACT the steel super structure of the Windsor Tower collapsed.

FACT the Towers were tube in tube steel framed design.
FACT the floor spaces braced the external columns to the inner core.
FACT the floors were supported by the external columns and inner cores.
FACT the external supporting columns of both towers were compromised by the plane crashes.
 
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Cute, but what about souces that are not biased. If I post pro-911 sites it is a sin. 911myths.com is an a-ok one. Sure your not biased.
It's not the site's bias that is the problem. The problem is that if you go to somewhere like 911myths.com, their claims are sourced to outside sources that are independently corroboratable. Ex. 911myths.com -> sciam.com and the info on sciam.com is objective and verifiable. Whereas, with a site like wtc7.net is that the sources usually end up in a circular reference. Ex. wtc7.net -> prisonplanet.com -> st911.org -> wtc7.net and the claim ends up being unverifiable.
 
Cute, but what about souces that are not biased. If I post pro-911 sites it is a sin. 911myths.com is an a-ok one. Sure your not biased.
The flight manifests I posted are available from numerous sources. I don't remember which source I downloaded them from, but the links I posted are from my photobucket account, not 911myths.

If you post something from prisonplanet as a source, that's perfectly fine, as long as they include appropriate citations so we can check the original sources against their factual assertions.

Same goes for my posting a link to 911myths. Mike includes links to original sources for every single one of his arguments. You don't have to agree with his analysis to agree with his factual assertions.
 
Mainstream media and a majority of Americans say that the confessions cannot be trusted because the CIA confession of waterboarding torture, and the fact that he has delusions of grandeur.

Which "mainstream media" say the confession cannot be trusted?

What's your source for the "majority of Americans" bit? (As a side note, would you correlate the results of that poll with the results of other, unrelated polls that show the "majority of Americans" unable to locate Saudi Arabia on a map?)

And of course... what's your source for the "fact" (irony head asplosion incoming) that KSM has "delusions of grandeur"? Do you even know what that means?
 
So the whole govt story is dependent upon the unknown theory of fire-proofing blowing off the building.


Let's see, hmm the winsor fire
(((ADDED by beachnut - see the steel bending and warping after just an hour!!! OOPS)

WTC fire




Winsor "collapse"




WTC collapse




Yeah I see your point.
Yes if the WTC had been made of a concrete like the portions of the now gone Windsor towers in Madrid, the WTC may have stood.

But like the Windsor tower, the WTC steel was damaged and too weak, Windsor had concrete holding it up, WTC only had weak steel, it fell. Notice if you will all the non-concrete section of the Windsor is gone. Fell.

Notice the Windsor building was too weak to keep, and where is the Windsor building today. IT is gone, too weak was the steel from what? FIRE. OOPS your example sucks.

Are you really this challenged on the facts?

This is so sad, you say fire can not bring down the WTC, you show me a fire with steel bending like rubber and falling all over the place, exploding to the ground as they said in Spain. Sad for you.
 
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Some tell Without Rights he is bring up stuff from over a year ago.

Factoid number nth + 1 : fire weakens steel! --- truth world has steel as too strong to be weak!!!

These are facts and the truth movement does not have one.

12447454a26a3309fa.jpg
Fire took out half this building that was steel only! Only concrete saved the rest from falling! The building too weak to keep was taken down; it had to be shored up just to take down.

Fact; steel needs fire proof insulation to keep it from failing quickly, if steel buildings did not have fire proofing they would fall to fast and kill more people. Fire destroys the strength of steel as seen in the Windsor building tuthers bring up as not falling. GEE the steel section is all gone! The WTC was all steel, no concrete support. Darn the truth movement proves steel fails. Why do truthers not pay attention?

Notice the Windsor building did not even have an aircraft impact equal to 2000 pounds of TNT or 10,000 gallons of jet fuel equal to 315 tons of TNT heat energy, yet the building is gone. The Windsor building was TOTALED by FIRE.

FACT! You asked for a fact! FIRE totaled the Windsor building in Madrid.
 
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Cute, but what about souces that are not biased. If I post pro-911 sites it is a sin. 911myths.com is an a-ok one. Sure your not biased.

You're headed right off the deep end, aren't you?

Okay, explain the "bias" in the flight manifests. Stop, think, research, and explain.

Will you? So far you're merely flinging poo and hoping the zoo staff can't keep up with the cleaning.
 
Fallacy via false analogy.

Comparing buildings with wildly different constructions is erroneous. This is just another example of a well-documented flaw in the conspiratorial groupthink. This issue has been covered ad nauseum and in great detail, and like all conspiratorial lines of inquiry, it fails gloriously under the slightest scrutiny.

It fails based on the fact wtc was said numerous times to be over contructed, and redundant. Your site "debunks" it by saying that after a few columns in the core are damaged that collapse was inevitable.

If I believe that then I believe that the people who designed it are incompetent and that is some of the most prominent engineers in the world.

Some how you want me to believe that putting 47 steel columns as a core somehow weakens it and makes more vulnerable than other historical examples.

I am supposed to believe that a building that took damage on one side, where the top initially fell sideways came straight down in an avalanche of pulverized concrete through the path of most resistance within a manner of seconds.

Building 7 was not built like the towers, what happened debris hit it? Fires raged? How come it fell? Were they just incompetent again even though it was a different design? But building 5 was built ok I guess. It was closer to the towers and didn't collapse but partially.




 
ok, before I post what I consider solid evidence and facts (and there is a blurred line between evidence and facts, so dont give me that black and white of evidence is not facts), I want to state that if you are going to dismiss what I post simply because you, joe blow public, do not have access to the raw information or data on said things, then lets end it here, because that is rediculous. I cannot walk up to a police station or FBI office and ask for "all the info" on criminal case "X", so why should you be entitled to the details or information from a criminal investigation...get real.

Evidence/Facts:

The FBI, the USA's criminal investigation organization, is accepted by most sane people as a reliable source for information. If you find them corrupt, etc, than that is your problem. Arguing that in your opinion they are corrupt, does not deminish the value or weight of evidence they provide, as your opinion is just that, a useless, weightless opinion...

FBI:

1. 19 Hijackers confirmed, both by flight manifests, and via DNA analysis. They were named in a criminal case against Moussaui. The evidence was good enough for acceptance into a legal case in a US Court of Law.

2. Thousands of people were eye witnesses to the planes that crashed, AA11 - WTC, UA 175 - WTC, AA77 - Pentagon. In a court of law, multiple eye witnesses to a crime or event is considered VERY STRONG evidence.

3. Family members of victims aboard the flights have testified, written and verbally, that they received phone calls from their loved ones while on the flights. Now in a court of law, what do you think would be seen as the strongest evidence, these testimonies from the relatives, or somone speculating that "well it coulda been actors using sophisticated voice mimicing technology" with no actual proof that this is what happened.

Shall we discuss these first, or will I post more. Do you have proof that the above facts/evidence are false?

TAM:)
 
How much would you like to bet? PM me with the dollar amount. Education isn't always free.
Ok so people escaped through shafts right. I am sure they were all trying to see if bombs were in there while they were trying to get the hell out if there.
 
So the whole govt story is dependent upon the unknown theory of fire-proofing blowing off the building.


Let's see, hmm the winsor fire


WTC fire



Winsor "collapse"




WTC collapse




Yeah I see your point.

The Windsor is a PERFECT example. The steel which fell had NO concrete fireproofing. It only took 2:30 for the first steel columns to collapse. What you see standing is steel covered in concrete. The building isn't a tube in a tube design either. It also wasn't hit by an airliner at 500 miles an hour. It's a perfect example of how conspiracy theorists use one dimensional thinking.

This fire is one of the fires Conspiracy theorist like to point to when talking about high raise office fires. This fire lasted 26 hours. But what they don't tell you is that the first collapse happened only 2 hours and 30 minutes after the fire began. But why didn't the building fall completely? It was on fire for 26 hours. The answer is very simple. The building were constructed very differently than the WTC. Reinforced concrete was used in the core and under the 17th floor. Below are detailed descriptions of how the Madrid tower was constructed and the reason for it not collapsing.

The building totaled 32 story's, with 29 floors above ground and three below. A concrete core and concrete frame supported the first 16 floors. Above that was a central support system of concrete columns, supporting concrete floors with steel perimeter columns. An additional feature was the presence of two 'technical floors' - concrete floors designed to give the building more strength. One was just above the ground level and the other at the 17th floor.

concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1095

The fire protection on the existing steelworks below the 17th floor had been completed at the time of fire except for the 9th and 15th floors. When the fire spread below the 17th floor, those protected perimeter columns survived, except for the unprotected columns at the 9th and 15th floors which all buckled in the multiple floor fire (see Figure 2). However, they did not cause any structural collapse. Obviously, the applied loads supported by these buckled columns had been redistributed to the remaining reinforced concrete shear walls. Nevertheless, structural fire analysis should be carried out before such a conclusion can be drawn.

23:00 Fire started at the 21st Floor

Time / Collapse Situation
1:29 East face of the 21st floor collapsed
1:37 South middle section of several floors above the 21st floor gradually collapsed
1:50 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:02 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:11 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:13 Floors above about 25th floor collapsed
Large collapse of middle section at about 20th floor
2:17 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:47 Southwest corner of 1 ~ 2 floors below about 20th floor collapsed
2:51 Southeast corner of about 18th ~ 20th floors collapsed
3:35 South middle section of about 17th ~ 20th floors collapsed
Fire broke through the Upper Technical Floor
3:48 Fire flame spurted out below the Upper Technical Floor
4:17 Debris on the Upper Technical Floor fell down



mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/
CaseStudy/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm

A survey of the fire damaged structure of the Windsor Tower, Madrid, has concluded that the concrete structure “performed extraordinarily well in a severe fire”. The study, ‘Fire in the Windsor building, Madrid: Survey of the fire resistance and residual bearing capacity of the structure after the fire’ was carried out by the Spanish Instituto Technico de Materiales y Construcciones (INTEMAC). It underlined the need for fireproofing structural steel concluding that the “need for fireproofing of steel members to guarantee their performance in the event of fire was reconfirmed”.

The Windsor Tower fire started on the 21st floor of the 32 storey building in February 2005. The fire quickly spread due to a lack of fire stops between the curtain wall façade and the concrete floor slabs. Designed and built in the 1970s, the tower was built using traditional design methods. Extensive refurbishment was underway at the time of the fire. Ironically, part of the refurbishment programme was to bring the building’s fire standards up-to-date with the installation of active fire prevention and resistance measures.

Structural failure happened with the collapse of the steel perimeter columns which resulted with the floor slabs collapsing as the edge support was taken away. The massive concrete transfer slab at the 20th floor prevented further progressive failure.

cjconnect.com/article.asp?articleid=1224&lastestnews=1

The building had a concrete central core with two rows of reinforced concrete columns in the north-south direction, aligned with the core side walls. The structure above ground was characterized by two transition floors at 3rd and 17th Floor levels, which housed plant and services.

The typical floor slab construction was reinforced concrete bi-directional ribbed slabs, spanning onto composite steel beams in the east-west direction. The slabs were supported along the perimeter by steel columns, supplemented by reinforced concrete columns on two sides below 17th Floor level.

The transition floors were formed with solid RC slabs and deep beams. The original facade mullions and transoms were fixed to the steel perimeter columns, and a new facade structure had been added to outside of old facade. The perimeter columns in turn were supported by transition structures at 17th and 3rd Floor levels.

The central concrete core appeared to perform well in the fire and on initial observations seems to have played a major role in ensuring the stability of the building throughout the incident. The role of cores in multiple floor fires is now an immediate area of study required for the industry, and Arup have commenced investigating this issue.

A thermo-mechanical assessment of this structural design, an understanding of why the structure performed as it did and why total collapse did not occur would provide valuable information for future structural fire analysis in design.

It would assist in the strong move now towards structural fire engineered buildings, and therefore help with the move away from reliance on Building Code based single element testing and associated fire proofing techniques which do not address real and structural behavior in real fires.

arup.com/fire/feature.cfm?pageid=6150

This building did not have as much wieght above it and was not hit by an airliner.

debunking911.com/madrid.htm
 
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It fails based on the fact wtc was said numerous times to be over contructed, and redundant. Your site "debunks" it by saying that after a few columns in the core are damaged that collapse was inevitable.

If I believe that then I believe that the people who designed it are incompetent and that is some of the most prominent engineers in the world.

Some how you want me to believe that putting 47 steel columns as a core somehow weakens it and makes more vulnerable than other historical examples.

I am supposed to believe that a building that took damage on one side, where the top initially fell sideways came straight down in an avalanche of pulverized concrete through the path of most resistance within a manner of seconds.

Building 7 was not built like the towers, what happened debris hit it? Fires raged? How come it fell? Were they just incompetent again even though it was a different design? But building 5 was built ok I guess. It was closer to the towers and didn't collapse but partially.




[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_15017460abb0caf3d9.jpg[/qimg]


So you have now gone from evidence to your "beliefs" on what "should have" happened, what "makes sense" to you?

TAM:)
 
I'll chip in on this one.

The collapse of the towers


If steel performs poorly in conditions of fire then alot of steel structures would collapse because of fire. Throughout history steel structures have performed just as designed regardless of size of the fire.

Really?

Oh well, I wont mention Crystal Palace then........

(cough)stal....(Cough)alace....

http://newsfilm.bufvc.ac.uk/article.php?story=2005100819530392

Just as designed huh?

Of course what you also wilfully ignore is that all of these structures which form an enclosed space have fire protection applied to the vulnerable steelwork. But you wouldn't mention that, because it doesn't fit in with your prejudices.

Likewise, you totally ignore the damage caused to the fireproofing by impact from another object or excessive movement.

That doesn't support the govt account, that is an example of rhetoric.
What the hell are you talking about? The cheif engineer on the project described in his own words the criteria for designing the towers to withstand impact from a passenger jet.

Your first part is a fact the second part is rhetoric. Where are the examples that show that steel connections are the "first to fail" in a fire.
Ask an engineer. Put it to him that you want to span across three supports with two beams joined together and ask him if he would like to join them in the middle of the span, or over (or close to) the middle support.

Do some research.


Doesn't that contradict your last "fact". Why did all the welding and bolts fail everywhere except where the trusses connected to the outer column. Those bolts stayed so strong that they pulled in huge steel beams and also broke through the concrete slabs while all the other just failed completely.
You probably think the external columns were continuous pieces of steel from the ground all the way up to the roof.

The trusses pulled the columns and the connections between the columns and the spandrel broke. The columns didn't snap. They failed at the weakest point, the joint.

Building 7 was designed exactly like that. They were able to remove floor assemblies completely in order to accomodate tenants needs.
Source?

WTC7 was a more traditional steel frame design with a subsequent compromise in available floor space. But traditional frames spread the loads over a gretaer area because the loadbearing elements are more widely spaced.

The towers were two tubes of columns. They depended on the floor trusses to restrain the columns because the tremendous downward loads would make them bow and spread outwards.

Funny how you jump to wtc7 when cornered though.

Not a fact, rhetoric, opinion, but not fact.
No actually FACT.

The whole point of fire protection is to save lives. That means the steelwork has to be protected long enough for an evacuation to be completed and for fire fighting to have a chance of success.

If it hadn't been for the extensive structural damage inflicted prior to the fire, then those towers may well be standing today.


Try again
 
It fails based on the fact wtc was said numerous times to be over contructed, and redundant.

All buildings are.

Your site "debunks" it by saying that after a few columns in the core are damaged that collapse was inevitable.

That's not what it says. Try again.

If I believe that then I believe that the people who designed it are incompetent and that is some of the most prominent engineers in the world.

Luckily no one believes that.

Some how you want me to believe that putting 47 steel columns as a core somehow weakens it and makes more vulnerable than other historical examples.

No, I don't want you to believe that. Neither does NIST. You should try reading their report.

I am supposed to believe that a building that took damage on one side, where the top initially fell sideways came straight down in an avalanche of pulverized concrete through the path of most resistance within a manner of seconds.

Essentially. More precisely, I'm asking you to believe the laws of physics. From them, you can derive that this is exactly what should happen. If you choose not to believe the laws of physics, I can't help you.

Building 7 was not built like the towers,

It was more like the towers than the Windsor building was like any of them.

what happened debris hit it? Fires raged? How come it fell? Were they just incompetent again even though it was a different design?

Yes. Yes. See previous two questions. Strawman.

But building 5 was built ok I guess. It was closer to the towers and didn't collapse but partially.

Comparing buildings of wildly different construction is still a fallacy. That hasn't changed in the last hour since I first told you.
 
Building seven: 47 stories, much taller than wide. Failure of internal structure on lower floors due to fire and damage leads to global collapse.

Building five: 9 stories, much wider than tall. Failure of internal structure due to fire and damage leads to internal progressive collapse.
 
Ok so people escaped through shafts right. I am sure they were all trying to see if bombs were in there while they were trying to get the hell out if there.

How about core columns exposed and engineers called to inspect for structural instability?

Again, what's your bet? I'm game. Stop flinging poo and start flinging cash.
 

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