Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Butter!]

Fun fact: After Stalin homo/bisexuality generally became opposed by the communists that supported the Soviet Union, especially among those who openly supported Stalinism. Hence why most post soviet states and those who modeled their laws and government on it had laws against sodomy until just after the fall of the soviet union.

This was based on non-religious homophobic bigotry and prejudice that was common throughout the world at the time, such as:

• Homosexuality was a disease and/or abnormal so society had to prevent it from becoming more prevalent and openly practiced as not to threaten society.
  
• Homo/bisexuals were a danger towards youth because they might "convert" them into becoming homo/bisexuals themselves rather than growing up to becoming normal healthy heterosexuals. A common trope is about them "tricking" an innocent and naive teenage boy into sexual depravity.
  
• Being attracted towards other guys and especially wanting to be the "bottom" is a very feminine and non-manly trait and it's unacceptable because men should be manly.

Plus, I'd be surprised if some of the disdain didn't come from the knowledge that homosexual coupling couldn't result in making more people to keep the "glorious" society running smoothly.

 

[Arcade22]

Plus, I'd be surprised if some of the disdain didn't come from the knowledge that homosexual coupling couldn't result in making more people to keep the "glorious" society running smoothly.

That one was (and still is) common. Sometimes it might not even be "homophobic" as much as it's a strong social pressure to get a wife, start a family and have children (like in China for example).

In some societies it was necessarily taboo to have gay sex on the side as long as they still had a wife and raised children.

 

[Meadmaker]

The "locker room" scenario is a red herring flopping down a slippery slope. I maintain that after a while, people will adapt to a wide rainbow of genders. New protocols will be invented every step of the way; small steps to new cultures.

We shall see. For what it's worth, I don't think you are completely correct. I do think the trend toward tolerance of diversity will continue. I think that vestiges of laws against homosexuality will be erased, and that will be a global trend, although the Muslim world will be a very, very, difficult nut to crack in that regard. The conservatives will undoubtedly feel compelled to blow some more people up before they give in.

I think the accommodation of transgender people will also continue.

However, I think the embracing of the rainbow will not be quite as complete as many expect. I think that as more people become more aware of the diversity of human experiences of sexuality, I think there will be a strong tendency for people to emphasize that they, themselves, are part of the "normal" portion. Men will emphasize their "macho" side. Women will become "more feminine". Everyone will be perfectly happy with those people who are in that middle range of the gender spectrum, but will try to do things that make it apparent that they are at the extreme ends, with clean separation between men and women.

I suppose we will see as time goes on. If we live long enough, we can see who is right.

 

[Butter!]

We shall see. For what it's worth, I don't think you are completely correct. I do think the trend toward tolerance of diversity will continue. I think that vestiges of laws against homosexuality will be erased, and that will be a global trend, although the Muslim world will be a very, very, difficult nut to crack in that regard. The conservatives will undoubtedly feel compelled to blow some more people up before they give in.

I think the accommodation of transgender people will also continue.

However, I think the embracing of the rainbow will not be quite as complete as many expect. I think that as more people become more aware of the diversity of human experiences of sexuality, I think there will be a strong tendency for people to emphasize that they, themselves, are part of the "normal" portion. Men will emphasize their "macho" side. Women will become "more feminine". Everyone will be perfectly happy with those people who are in that middle range of the gender spectrum, but will try to do things that make it apparent that they are at the extreme ends, with clean separation between men and women.

I suppose we will see as time goes on. If we live long enough, we can see who is right.

I think you make some terrific points. Good food for thought indeed.

 

[The Atheist]

However, I think the embracing of the rainbow will not be quite as complete as many expect. I think that as more people become more aware of the diversity of human experiences of sexuality, I think there will be a strong tendency for people to emphasize that they, themselves, are part of the "normal" portion. Men will emphasize their "macho" side. Women will become "more feminine". Everyone will be perfectly happy with those people who are in that middle range of the gender spectrum, but will try to do things that make it apparent that they are at the extreme ends, with clean separation between men and women.

I suppose we will see as time goes on. If we live long enough, we can see who is right.

I'll have a dollar against you any day on that.

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

It gets even better.

The current trend among 10-12 yo boys is to have the most girlie haircuts imaginable. Whereas when I was that age, a girle haircut would be asking for a painful death, now boys look like girls, girls look like boys and very few of them give a toss.

Thank christ it is one area of human development where kids are growing up with the right attitudes and they are attitudes I believe will be carried through past the day the last person with cultural baggage on the subject is dust.

 

[marplots]

The current trend among 10-12 yo boys is to have the most girlie haircuts imaginable. Whereas when I was that age, a girle haircut would be asking for a painful death, now boys look like girls, girls look like boys and very few of them give a toss.

If enough of them get it, we'll have to stop calling it "girlie."

 

[petrov2500]

That does not mean that UK or Canadian culture are any more accepting of transgender/transexual individuals than US culture. My experience, and that of many of my acquaintances, is that they are just as far from accepting such people as the US is; and the far-left is often just as homophobic/transphobic as the far-right.

Sorry, not buying it. Support for transgendered people is strongly associated with left wing politics.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

From here we see that Canada and UK view homosexuality more positively then the USA. For course homosexuality and transgenderism are not the same thing, but support for one usually means support for the other.

 

[dirtywick]

I'll have a dollar against you any day on that.

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

It gets even better.

The current trend among 10-12 yo boys is to have the most girlie haircuts imaginable. Whereas when I was that age, a girle haircut would be asking for a painful death, now boys look like girls, girls look like boys and very few of them give a toss.

Thank christ it is one area of human development where kids are growing up with the right attitudes and they are attitudes I believe will be carried through past the day the last person with cultural baggage on the subject is dust.

When did you grow up? In the 70's everyone looked like a girl. In the 80's everyone looked like my grandma. In the 90's everyone had a mullet.

 

[king catfish]

It is also troubling to see people reacting to the idea of finding out a potential partner is trans not merely with disappointment but with anger. I hope that those people understand that if that situation ever arises, it would be best for everyone if they kept that anger to themselves.

This is the part I don't understand. Why be angry about that? Silly. Why not just say, "Hey, sorry, no thanks. Let's have a beer then, yeah?"

 

[king catfish]

Maybe you need to expand on what you mean by wrong? Words keep being used in this thread as if they have a single well defined meaning with nice hard lines around them and relate to real world objects that respect the boundaries of the definition. I have no idea what you mean by "wrong" in this context.

IMO (and I am not an expert, whatever that is), that a sexual preference for prepubescent children is psychologically and perhaps biologically dysfunctional. "Broken" or "abnormal" perhaps is a better descriptor. A sexual attraction to chimpanzees is similarly "wrong". Pedophilia is just simply not in the same category as other sexual preferences because it necessitates victimization. Being attracted to children is wrong, because it cannot be expressed or fulfilled without hurting someone.

I'm just as liberal and accepting as the next guy, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Just because someone somewhere has this preference doesn't mean I have to accept it. If one is really a pedophile, then he is broken and in deep need of counseling (and unfortunate). It's not against the law to be attracted to kids, but anyone with this unfortunate problem who does not do the responsible thing and stay the hell away from all children is wrong. Sorry, some of us get dealt a crappy hand in life.

 

[king catfish]

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

I'm not sure where you live, but that statement is not equally true in metropolitan East Coast of the US (where I live) and the cornfields of Illinois (where my in-laws line). It is perhaps somewhat true here, but it sure as hell is not true in any significant way there, where Jesus still rules with an iron fist.

 

[Meadmaker]

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

It was partly my observation of teenagers that led me to this, rather speculative, conclusion. They do indeed seem very accepting of the concepts. There was one transgender among my son's friends growing up. When "she" announced that from now on it would be "he", no one was surprised, or shocked, or critical. Everyone had known that "she" was awfully boyish right from the start. As soon as they learned what a transgender was, "she" was pegged right away as a likely candidate, and no one was freaked out about it when "he" announced he would be going by a new name now.

Likewise, their attitudes toward homosexuals was also, "it's no big deal". And yet, there always seemed to be an undercurrent of "it's no big deal...for them", but they seemed to have a definite desire to make clear that it was perfectly fine with them, the heterosexual, masculine, very definitely male, guys that this other guy wasn't like that.

And maybe I'm making far too much out of the fact that people of my generation walk around naked in locker rooms, and people of younger generation wrap themselves in towels until they absolutely have to take them off.

Well, at any rate, these are long term trends. I certainly think the trend towards acceptance will continue. It's hard to say what other trends, if any, will come along with the acceptance.

 

[Aepervius]

I'll have a dollar against you any day on that.

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

Do you have any stats or poll to back that up ? Because I have experienced the other way around trend. Transexualism was accepted , slightly mocked, but nowhere near as much as homosexuality was back 20-25 years ago, ETA:where i lived. On the other hand I find many people younger than me reacting with aversion now. Anecdotial evidence being worthless a poll or study tracking this would say what the trend really is.

 

[Arcade22]

It was partly my observation of teenagers that led me to this, rather speculative, conclusion. They do indeed seem very accepting of the concepts. There was one transgender among my son's friends growing up. When "she" announced that from now on it would be "he", no one was surprised, or shocked, or critical. Everyone had known that "she" was awfully boyish right from the start. As soon as they learned what a transgender was, "she" was pegged right away as a likely candidate, and no one was freaked out about it when "he" announced he would be going by a new name now.

Likewise, their attitudes toward homosexuals was also, "it's no big deal". And yet, there always seemed to be an undercurrent of "it's no big deal...for them", but they seemed to have a definite desire to make clear that it was perfectly fine with them, the heterosexual, masculine, very definitely male, guys that this other guy wasn't like that.

I think it's about how homosexuality is portrayed and how inter/transgender, and especially those who are androgynous, don't conform to those preconceived ideas. Essentially they are sure they aren't attracted towards big body-builders, fat middle age transvestites and average guys in general yet they never really thought about those who, despite being "male" are more than pretty and sexy enough to pass as a "female".

 

[Cavemonster]

I'll have a dollar against you any day on that.

Maybe you aren't close enough to younger generations to see, but the fact is that an overwhelming majority of people under 25 have no gender phobia and are entirely accepting of transgender and intersex people. I've watched the acceptance levels stay right up there for the past 10-15 years and if anything, it's stronger than ever, with genderphobes likely to be laughed at or derided.

I think you may have a limited sample. The schools where young boys adopting "girlie" haircuts is common , I suspect, are predominantly at particular intersections of geography, class, race and culture. I absolutely guarantee you transgender kids still have a hell of a hard time in rural Tennessee, or in inner city low income schools in Boston.

 

[The Atheist]

Do you have any stats or poll to back that up ?

There seems to be, yes.

The numbers appear to hold true across various countries and cultures, but the others are not linkable. This search will give you some others to check out.

I absolutely guarantee you transgender kids still have a hell of a hard time in rural Tennessee, or in inner city low income schools in Boston.

I would expect them to have a hard time in lots of places, but along with the evidence above, this:

I'm not sure where you live, but that statement is not equally true in metropolitan East Coast of the US (where I live) and the cornfields of Illinois (where my in-laws line). It is perhaps somewhat true here, but it sure as hell is not true in any significant way there, where Jesus still rules with an iron fist.

Somewhat true for the east coast is a good start. The turn round in gay acceptance didn't happen overnight.

 

[king catfish]

Somewhat true for the east coast is a good start. The turn round in gay acceptance didn't happen overnight.

Yes, a good start, but not enough yet.

I think your assessment has merit only in metropolitan areas. I live in Philadelphia. I know from personal experience that fewer than 30 miles from here, going NW, I might as well be in Alabama in the 1950s.

 

[Butter!]

Yes, a good start, but not enough yet.

I think your assessment has merit only in metropolitan areas. I live in Philadelphia. I know from personal experience that fewer than 30 miles from here, going NW, I might as well be in Alabama in the 1950s.

Yeah, this. I lived in Pittsburgh for many years and gay and trans acceptance was the absolute norm, an integral part of daily life. No one batted an eye. A bigot would find himself or herself the outcast, literally.

Now I've had to temporarily relocate to a much smaller PA town about an hour and a half east of Pittsburgh. Same state - hell, you can make the drive in a little over an hour if you're determined and don't hit any rush hour traffic near the city. And you would not believe the difference.

It's like the '50s here, except a ton of people are on heroin. I'm not kidding. There are virtually no (out) trans people. Most gays are highly stigmatized or in the closet entirely. Everyone is Catholic, and a big drag too. Moral high horses everywhere. Oh, people still have children out of wedlock - but they get a legitimately hard time about it, often. In this day and age! It's incredible.

You want to talk culture shock. And in such a short distance! It really made me sad.

 

[Meadmaker]

Now I've had to temporarily relocate to a much smaller PA town about an hour and a half east of Pittsburgh. Same state - hell, you can make the drive in a little over an hour if you're determined and don't hit any rush hour traffic near the city. And you would not believe the difference.

James Carville was once talking about how difficult it was to run presidential campaigns in Ohio. He said, "It's New York on the East side, Ohio on the West side, and Alabama in the middle."

 

[Axiom_Blade]

True enough, and as I plainly recognized above, in my case is that I never want to have sex with a male. As wounding it may be to MtF people, or FtM, I and probably many others no matter what excuse about fertility they bring, are simply stuck on that step, everything which has had, or has now a penis, is considered to be male.

By you. Not everybody thinks this way, though. I think that this concept becomes more absurd the more you look at it, especially when you consider that by that rubric people like Kim Petras are men.