Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Slowvehicle]

Completely agree. I've seen a little bit of niche appreciation for people who have found comfortable places of their own, but these days, there's usually an air of unexpectedness about the idea. The recent tone seems overly binary. Heck, twenty fifteen years ago guys who were clean and fashionable got their own word, metrosexual, to make sure everybody knew it was OK, they were still real men, just, you know, clean.

But the term, "metrosexual", intended to be a label for a gender rôle, sounds as if it is a label for a sexual orientation, which does not increase clarity.

 

[Donn]

People sense and feel their gender analogously to the way the sense and feel their equilibrium, the position and orientation of their limbs, the sensation of fullness, the preference for one hand over the other, etc. Gender perception is something the brain does, often times without one being aware of it at all.

I really like your "gender is a sense" explanation. I shall try to hold on to that one.

Oh, and thanks for mu too!

 

[Ladewig]

The answer you're looking for is mu.

Thanks. It is a useful concept.

I was thinking about making a list of all the reasons why someone might chose "Planet X" in a poll, and mu is definitely one of them. [the question itself must be "unasked": no answer can exist in the terms provided.]

 

[LashL]

Parents should be held liable for this sort of thing.

I realize that this thread ceased to be about Leelah/Josh a long time ago (i.e. page 1) but this comment (around page 9 or 10) caught my eye. What is it that you think "parents should be held liable for" and to whom?

 

[shuttlt]

See, I find this intriguing. Why?

It's not the conclusion of any rational argument. It's not because the word female is decided to be the correct one. It's certainly not based on any scientific findings about gender. Those are the categories I find I have.

 

[Cavemonster]

I realize that this thread ceased to be about Leelah/Josh a long time ago (i.e. page 1) but this comment (around page 9 or 10) caught my eye. What is it that you think "parents should be held liable for" and to whom?

I think the behavior of these parents, cutting her off from social contact, the belittling of her identity, the "repairative" therapy is all behavior that would unquestionably be considered abuse if the identity that they were trying to suppress wasn't something mainstream culture and religion found to be icky.

Imagine a child who is both biologically male and who feels male but whose parents force him to dress and act as a girl, express shame and rage at his desire to express a male identity, cut him off from friends who support his desire to live as a male, send him to fringe "therapists" to continue the shaming. I simply can't imagine a place in the US where that would not be considered child abuse. Can you?

So while I don't think the current legal structure provides a framework to address this abuse, it ought to in the future for the sake of future trans young people. The parents' actions should be the sort of thing addressed by child protective services and then the courts.

 

[Belz...]

I realize that this thread ceased to be about Leelah/Josh a long time ago (i.e. page 1) but this comment (around page 9 or 10) caught my eye. What is it that you think "parents should be held liable for" and to whom?

Psychological harassment leading to death. If someone at work bullies you to suicide, your spouse could sue them. Why not the parents ?

Also, how has it ceased to be about the teen ?

 

[marplots]

The answer you're looking for is mu.

The question is meaningless for the same reasons that asking "why can't gay men see that other men don't have breasts or vaginas" is meaningless.

In other words, the presumption that trans people suffer from some persistent error of fact about their biological sex is incorrect. Trans people are very much aware of their biological sex and its immutability.

The issue is that all people experience their gender and have a subjective sense of masculine or feminine sense of self. People sense and feel their gender analogously to the way the sense and feel their equilibrium, the position and orientation of their limbs, the sensation of fullness, the preference for one hand over the other, etc. Gender perception is something the brain does, often times without one being aware of it at all.

For a small percentage of people, their gender perception may not be congruent with the expectations of their biological sex. Some biological females may have a distinctly masculine sense of self, while some biological males may have a distinctly feminine sense of self. Colloquially, they identify with the sense of being a man or a woman.

These kinds of perceptions are not, as you imply, incorrect belief's about one's biology.

This is a good way of putting it. And I think the messages Josh sent support the idea that he knew what he was up against. He didn't want to be seen as a "manny" - someone with male secondary sex characteristics who tried to dress and act female.

As I read the tale, the reason he killed himself was because his parents did not support him having the medical procedures necessary to convert to a female physiognomy. Knowing there was limited window within which gender reassignment surgery was likely to be fully successful, he decided to take his life instead of living as a kind of "bad conversion."

Physical appearance is at the root of this suicide. Language policing that switches "he" and "she" or "Josh" and "Leelah" miss this underlying fact. And if it's a matter of being polite, to whom is the politeness directed? He's dead. Is it the memory? Is it meant as a PC attempt to support the trans-gender community?

The notion that biological sex and secondary sexual characteristics do not matter when it comes to gender seems absurd, when it was of such importance to the subject of this thread.

ETA: I have not read whether the parents could afford the procedure or not, which might put a different spin on the story. As it stands, there is much to discuss about how much parents should be able to control the lives of their offspring at 14-years-old.

 

[shuttlt]

I have not read whether the parents could afford the procedure or not, which might put a different spin on the story. As it stands, there is much to discuss about how much parents should be able to control the lives of their offspring at 14-years-old.

The mother said that this was the reason gave for refusing it. I've no idea how much it costs end to end.

 

[Aepervius]

Actually, the only "gorilla" at the party is the continued conflation of "mating" sex (for reproduction) with "sexfun" sex (for unbridled gong-bong humma-humma hotsies). (Sorry to use such technical vocabulary.)

Unless one is in the "proceration ONLY" camp...

The distinction and the conflation does not matter. What matters is what you feel acceptable as sexual partner. If you see MtF as *still* male for sexual purpose, it does not matter anymore if it is for fun or mating.

 

[Aepervius]

The point that I was making is that the rational given is a total cop out. They don't hold to the standards they are claiming that is what is driving their refusal to date them.

I don't think people are obligated to date other people, and not being into trans, redheads, blacks, tall women, short men or what have you is a mark against them. But they need to admit it about why they are doing it and not coming up with some lame excuse that clearly isn't the motivator behind their behavior as it only applies to trans people.

How much rage would people feel about a spouse who lied to them about being infertile vs being trans? I think that there would be a serious difference there and that says to me it isn't about the fertility of the trans person.

True enough, and as I plainly recognized above, in my case is that I never want to have sex with a male. As wounding it may be to MtF people, or FtM, I and probably many others no matter what excuse about fertility they bring, are simply stuck on that step, everything which has had, or has now a penis, is considered to be male.

 

[Aepervius]

I will own it. Having sex with a male repulses me. I don't have a rational explanation for why that is. I contend there are no rational explanations for sexual preference. I like what I like.

I am on the same level than you. I would not be able to explain why I want sex with female, but the idea of sex with male repulse me. It is simply so.

Funnily enough I do not care if *others* have homosexual sex, marry, or do whatever, it is simply my own body where the limit is drawn.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I realize that this thread ceased to be about Leelah/Josh a long time ago (i.e. page 1) but this comment (around page 9 or 10) caught my eye. What is it that you think "parents should be held liable for" and to whom?

As the variety of therapy she was undergoing is legally abusive in several states, what is the liability if the victim of an abuser commits suicide? What ideally should it be?

 

[Aepervius]

We should all just fess-up and say that we are not in control of our bodies and their gravities. We can control this knowing, however. We can learn that we have these prejudices and learn that our repulsion is harming other people!

*socially* I agree with you, but sexually It is a two way road.

 

[ponderingturtle]

True enough, and as I plainly recognized above, in my case is that I never want to have sex with a male. As wounding it may be to MtF people, or FtM, I and probably many others no matter what excuse about fertility they bring, are simply stuck on that step, everything which has had, or has now a penis, is considered to be male.

And do those with andogen insensitivity count? They are male(by some biological definitions of male) but never had a penis.

I find it hard to see why one would not be squicked by their condition but be squicked by say the previous genitalia of a trans woman who competes in beauty competitions.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am on the same level than you. I would not be able to explain why I want sex with female, but the idea of sex with male repulse me. It is simply so.

Funnily enough I do not care if *others* have homosexual sex, marry, or do whatever, it is simply my own body where the limit is drawn.

And I am heterosexual, but would not rule out trans and gender queer individuals who hit my radar as attractive. And that broadly means feminine.

 

[Aepervius]

I don't understand. Are you saying that you can only change gender if you have a complete organ transplant?

No I mean that changing your arm to leg does not make you suddenly a quadruped. And losing a leg does not make you a uni-pede, you still are dependent in both case to a bipedial mode of locomotion, your spine, your body is geared for that.

 

[Aepervius]

And I am heterosexual, but would not rule out trans and gender queer individuals who hit my radar as attractive. And that broadly means feminine.

To which I can only answer : everyone has its taste and its limit.

What I disagree is with people which want to say like in this thread, that some limit are not valid.

 

[Aepervius]

And do those with andogen insensitivity count? They are male(by some biological definitions of male) but never had a penis.

I find it hard to see why one would not be squicked by their condition but be squicked by say the previous genitalia of a trans woman who competes in beauty competitions.

As mentioned above I did not mention chromosome but penis. But if you want to go down that road, complete Insensitivity might be XY, but they are physically born female because the are not insensitive to the female hormone and development. De facto it is as if they were XX really.

In other world I would not mind having sex with a XY female having complete insensitivity (IOW penis never developed) but I am squicked by the idea of sex with anybody having had a penis (hermaphrodite, MtF, partial insensitivity).

Is it rational ? probably not. But it is what it is.

 

[ponderingturtle]

To which I can only answer : everyone has its taste and its limit.

What I disagree is with people which want to say like in this thread, that some limit are not valid.

Their validity is judged for all kinds of things. What rejections for your past would you not accept? I take issue with people who reject partners for their religious history, ethnicity, or sexual history as well. And I suspect you would take issue with some things that people use to determine who is a valid partner as well.