LDS

[Craig4]

None of us have any interest in such foolish questions.

However I have provided links before to LDS member sites and LDS official sites who do answer such matters.

I bet they tell you to stay away from archaeologists, historians, anthropologists, and geneticists too.

 

[DragonLady]

Foolish questions? Read and comprehend?

Who in the world do you think you're talking to?

If you look around this forum with open eyes, you'll see this a gathering place of the smartest, most educated, erudite, well-spoken, and most rational people on this planet.

 

[Evolved Wookie]

Wow.

I have now read this entire thread and...wow.

First off, of course, a tip of the hat, free cookies and, damnit, a big hug to RandFan, Empress, Cat Tale and all the rest of you that have made this such an erudite, fascinating and illuminating thread.

Secondly...how sad to see a faith so shaky and tenuous that it cannot bear even the most cursory inspection. Janadele, I'm not sure why you're here, but I think the martyr hypothesis stands up to some scrutiny; however, I think I can speak for many here when I say that we don't hate you. We think your life would be so much more fulfilled if you stopped listening to the self-serving instructions of others and let your own intellect speak to you. Perhaps if you do that you will still believe in your current faith, perhaps it would lead to another faith, perhaps it might even remove the scales from your eyes and let you see the wonderful, majestic, god-free world that most here enjoy...wherever it might lead would be less important that the fact that you allowed your own brain to get you there.

There have been brief flashes of your own thought here and there on this thread, but always you retreat to the rote apologetics of your church. It's heartbreaking.

Please, let yourself ask the questions that you must know are reasonable...you might even like the answers.

 

[Evolved Wookie]

Foolish questions? Read and comprehend?

Who in the world do you think you're talking to?

If you look around this forum with open eyes, you'll see this a gathering place of the smartest, most educated, erudite, well-spoken, and most rational people on this planet.

Can I opt out of that list, please? It sounds like a lot of responsibility...

 

[pakeha]

From your scholarly text:
"
Quote:
Historical Background of the Papyri

In order to understand the BA a brief recitation of its modern extraction may be helpful. In 1835 Michael Chandler brought several mummies to Kirtland that aroused great excitement among the Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith too took note of these objects from antiquity. Initially attracted by his native curiosity, Smith soon realized the significance of the ancient artifacts. Upon examining some of the writing on the papyri accompanying the mummies, Joseph noticed some resemblance to those characters on the plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon. This was Smith's first indication that there may have been more to the mummies than mere objects of curiosity. Applying his abilities towards an understanding of the characters, Smith soon presented Chandler with a brief translation of some of these characters, with which Chandler was duly impressed. Only after later and more extensive examination of the scrolls did Joseph learn that the scrolls contained writings allegedly originating with the great patriarchal figures of Israel's past. The similarity in writing systems of these two communities is compelling, as not only did it signify to Joseph Smith the great importance of the papyri, but perhaps it also helped him decipher the full meaning of those writings. Perhaps the similarity in writing systems Smith observed led him to tentatively posit larger connections between the respective communities which had produced the Book of Mormon and the papyri accompanying the mummies. Some early witnesses identified Hebrew characters on the papyri in addition to the Egyptian elements. As William I. Appleby said, "The writings are chiefly in the Egyptian language, with the exception of a little Hebrew." Appleby's identification of Hebrew characters meshes well with the BM writing Joseph first noticed on the papyri. This connection of the Book of Abraham with the Book of Mormon could also provide the key to our own understanding of the Book of Abraham and the individual or community that produced it.
"




I don't recommend delving too deeply if you want to maintain a belief in the basic intelligence of the human species.

That's true, based on all the evidence I've seen. The owner of the mummies, Michael Chandler, who was exhibiting them, approached Smith and asked him to translate them. The way I see it, Chandler was a showman, trying to attract attention to his mummies. Approaching Smith was a publicity stunt. Smith was put on the spot, but with some ego stroking and the realization that the publicity would help both ways, plunged into the translation and discovered it worked--meaning it was something he could do (i.e. tell stories inspired by the pictures on the papyri) and people would believe him. So he forged ahead.

Here's a BYU site's version:



An anti-Mormon book saying essentially the same thing, though claiming that no others had interpreted them:

Pup, are you saying Empress' source is incorrect and the BYU version is correct?

 

[zooterkin]

She said a while ago she has six children. She's been consistent in that she had three sons who served a mission. I'm assuming that she had one who did not. All four sons married in the temple. She may have more sons, she may have two daughters. But I never saw any inconsistency in her story, here.

Agreed; having referred to the three sons who served a mission in one post, in the later post when she refers just to "my three sons", it's pretty clear from the context that she is referring to the three she'd identified earlier.

 

[Pup]

Pup, are you saying Empress' source is incorrect and the BYU version is correct?

Yes. Unfortunately, in that brief section, Empress's source doesn't summarize the evidence from its own footnotes very well.

Empress's source gives a footnote for this sentence:

"In 1835 Michael Chandler brought several mummies to Kirtland that aroused great excitement among the Latter-day Saints"

to:

H. Donl Peterson, The Story of the Book of Abraham: Mummies, Manuscripts, and Mormonism (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1995)

Here's how Peterson describes it (still another secondary source, but more detailed and closer to primary sources):

Mr. Chandler had heard of Joseph Smith's skill in translating Egyptian. However, most of the informers apparently made light of the Prophet's claim...

When Chandler arrived in Kirtland, he probably placed copies of two different placards, or handbills, in conspicuous locations [description of placards]...

When Chandler registered at the Riggs Hotel, he requested that Gideon Riggs, the proprietor, send his son John to Joseph Smith's house... John Riggs was sent a second time with a note from Mr. Chandler requesting an interview with the Prophet. Joseph replied that he would come to the hotel at eight o'clock the following morning.

The young messenger was present when the Prophet first saw the papyrus the next morning. He later recalled that "Joseph was permitted to take the papyrus home with him, Father Riggs vouching for its return, and the following morning Joseph came with the leaves which he had translated, which Oliver Cowdery read, and Mr. Chandler then produced the translation of Professor Charles Anthon as far as the professor could translate it." Young Riggs, who was also present at the reading, stated that the translations of the Prophet and the professor agreed to a point, but "there was one language Professor Anthon could not translate which the Prophet did."

Peterson goes on to discuss the variations in primary sources at length, quoting several extensively.

I'm having trouble linking directly to where that section starts in Peterson's book, because there are no page numbers, but click here and use the search box at the left to search for any phrase in the above passage, like "Professor Anthon could," and it'll take you to the section and you can read more, including the quotes from primary sources.

The next sentence in Empress's source is this:

"Smith too took note of these objects from antiquity. Initially attracted by his native curiosity, Smith soon realized the significance of the ancient artifacts. Upon examining some of the writing on the papyri accompanying the mummies, Joseph noticed some resemblance to those characters on the plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon."

And it's footnoted to here:

"Letter of Oliver Cowdery to William Frye, December 22, 1835 in Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate 2, No. 3, 235."

You can read Cowdery's letter at this link (scroll down about halfway).

Cowdery's letter says:

He was immediately told while yet in the [New York] customhouse, that there was no man in that city, who could translate his rolls; but was referred by the same gentleman, (a stranger) to Mr. Joseph Smith, Jr., who continued [that] he possess some kind of power or gift by which he had previously translated similar characters...
...
From Philadelphia he visited Harrisburg, [Pennsylvania] and other places east of the mountains, and was frequently referred to Brother Smith for the translation of his Egyptian relic...


It would be beyond my purpose to follow this gentleman in his different circuits to the time he visited this place, the last of June or first of July, at which time he presented Brother Smith with his papyrus. Till then neither myself nor Brother Smith knew of such relics being in America. Mr. Chandler was told that his writings could be deciphered, and very politely gave me privileges of copying some four or five different sentences or separate pieces, stating at the same time, that unless he found someone who "could give him a translation soon he would carry them to London."

I am a little in advance of my narrative. The morning Mr. Chandler first presented his papyrus to Brother Smith, he was shown by the latter, a number of characters like those upon the writings of Mr. C. [Chandler] which were previously copied from the plates containing the history of the Nephites, or Book of Mormon.
Being solicited by Mr. Chandler to give an opinion concerning his antiquities, or a translation of some of the characters, Brother J. [Joseph Smith] gave him the interpretation of some few for his satisfaction.

Based on all the above, I'd say that my summary:

"The owner of the mummies, Michael Chandler, who was exhibiting them, approached Smith and asked him to translate them."

is actually a more accurate summary of the footnotes in Empress's source, than the way Empress's source summarized them:

"In 1835 Michael Chandler brought several mummies to Kirtland that aroused great excitement among the Latter-day Saints.Joseph Smith too took note of these objects from antiquity. Initially attracted by his native curiosity, Smith soon realized the significance of the ancient artifacts."

 

[Foster Zygote]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/polygamy
"In 1831, Church founder Joseph Smith made a prayerful inquiry about the ancient Old Testament practice of plural marriage. This resulted in the divine instruction to reinstitute the practice as a religious principle... Subsequently, in 1890, President Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the Church, received what Latter-day Saints believe to be a revelation in which God withdrew the command to practice plural marriage."

That's not very consistent with a powerful god telling his people what is righteous.

It is very consistent with a man deciding to abuse the great power that he's found himself wielding so that he can have sex with multiple women, then years later, the leaders of the church he founded finding plural marriage to be too much of a political and social liability to maintain, and so deciding to dump it out of expediency.

 

[Janadele]

Wow.

I have now read this entire thread and...wow.

Not the entire thread... portions are archived in the "Abandon All Hope Thread" .

 

[halleyscomet]

Not the entire thread... portions are archived in the "Abandon All Hope Thread" .

Is there anything in those portions you consider worth reading?

If so, can you post or PM some links to said content?

 

[Evolved Wookie]

Not the entire thread... portions are archived in the "Abandon All Hope Thread" .

Way to avoid the actual meat of my post! Now I really feel like I've taken part.

Trust me, Janadele, I've read rather a lot of what's been split off too.

 

[jsfisher]

None of us have any interest in such foolish questions.

Have you reconsidered the foolishness of the questions given that they are recommended by actual, official LDS training material for missionaries?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Not the entire thread... portions are archived in the "Abandon All Hope Thread" .

Which does not keep anyone from reading those portions...

 

[halleyscomet]

Have you reconsidered the foolishness of the questions given that they are recommended by actual, official LDS training material for missionaries?

That's a good point. She dismisses these as "Foolish" questions, yet the very LDS sources she promotes as the be-all and end-all of answers say the opposite.

It's as if she is blindly promoting an authority she herself is not familiar with, or is just a troll trying to make Mormons look gullible, credulous and unintelligent.

 

[jsfisher]

That's a good point. She dismisses these as "Foolish" questions, yet the very LDS sources she promotes as the be-all and end-all of answers say the opposite.

It's as if she is blindly promoting an authority she herself is not familiar with, or is just a troll trying to make Mormons look gullible, credulous and unintelligent.

Janadele occasionally makes statements of her own without getting LDS high-command approval for her comments. Those statements provide rare glimpses of Janadele the person instead of Janadele the quotation conduit.

Strangely, most of the time that Janadele speaks from her own heart, what she says doesn't agree with official doctrine.

This was one of those times.

 

[Evolved Wookie]

It's almost like there's a person in there, screaming to get out...

 

[tsig]

Janadele occasionally makes statements of her own without getting LDS high-command approval for her comments. Those statements provide rare glimpses of Janadele the person instead of Janadele the quotation conduit.

Strangely, most of the time that Janadele speaks from her own heart, what she says doesn't agree with official doctrine.

This was one of those times.

She must think this makes the LDS look bad yet the way Randfan puts it it's nothing more than the Christian admonition to visit the sick and care for the afflicted.

 

[Robin1]

Janadele, I am a believer in God. A loving God. A God who judges people by their character, their heart... not the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their religion etc.
The whole "love one another" sentiment is what I believe is most important to my God.
In other words:
I believe that any atheist, or gay person, or transgender, or jewish, or black person, or anyone...who lived his life being kind and loving others, will have a much greater chance of entering those Pearly Gates than anyone who believes as you do, Janadele.

 

[Empress]

She must think this makes the LDS look bad yet the way Randfan puts it it's nothing more than the Christian admonition to visit the sick and care for the afflicted.

I think there's been a little misunderstanding, caused by Janadele's stubborn refusal to quote the post to which she's replying.

When she mentioned "foolish questions" I believe she was referring to Slowvehicle's repeated, and very patient, request for a list of answers to the anachronisms of the BoM, not to RandFan and Cat Tale's missionary experiences of looking for prospects among those who had recently lost a loved one. To my recollection, she was quite clear with her denial about the latter, but refused to address anything about the former.

 

[RandFan]

She must think this makes the LDS look bad yet the way Randfan puts it it's nothing more than the Christian admonition to visit the sick and care for the afflicted.

To be fair, in one of my posts I disparaged the idea as simply marketing. But that was not really charitable on my part. I do think that there is more than a marketing aspect.

I would like to say that there is much that is good about the community of Mormonism. Further I would suggest to people that Mormon missionaries are by and large kind and decent people who volunteer their time because they care.

I think that is part of the allure of Mormonism. People honestly care. They do help each other in times of need. Not all of them and not always. They're human like everyone else but, IMO, most are not saccharine. They are like Cat. Dedicated to their community as well as their faith.

Please don't judge Mormonism by Janadele's actions here. And I would say don't judge her. From what little I can glean she is a good person.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.