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Akuma Tennou said:
Hmmm. Are you taking into account the church's leaders hypocrisy? I don't know that much about LDS, but from the experience you shared it seems LDS and jehovah's witnesses have a lot in common. While ambulance chasing is not an "official" guideline for their ministry, JWs are reminded quite often that it is indeed a productive shot. The "ensign" magazine looks quite like the LDS equivalent of the JW's "watchtower". The latter clearly gave more emphasis on how the loss of a loved one was a pain than on the joy of getting married or having a baby. Just a slight poke once in a while is enough, and if it's hidden it's even better. In the end, talking to experienced door-to-door proselytisers leaves no doubt as how the ambulance guideline is encroached in their mind without the proselytiser himself noticing it.
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Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all.
 
SezMe said:
Not even close. I've learned more from you and Empress than our own beloved Margaret Houlihan and B.J. Hunnicutt Janadele and skyrider44 could put on offer in a million-post thread. So if you don't mind, more questions for both of you.

First by way of background, were you, RandFan, raised through high school in southern California (specific location not important)?

Second, about the preparation, did anyone "fail" (or not complete) the prep class? At MTC, did anybody wash out? Did anyone get caught diddling the local Provo talent (of either gender) or, for that matter, other MTC attendees? What was your impression of your classmates there? First class folks or high school jocks who didn't know what to do.


Did you have any influence at all on where you went? For example, could you beg a post to Switzerland or Martinique? Do you know who really decided? Where did you personally want to go?

The Mickey Mouse connection could have two meanings. It's because Disney Land is in Orange County or it's because it was a plume piece of cake compared to other potential assignments. Or, I suppose, both.


Surely they didn't think a foreign language can be acquired in a month. Which languages did they teach?


Really? How much material did you have to commit to memory?

Empress, you said women could be missionaries if they wanted to. How many actually do? If they do, is that seen as a compliment or that they aren't doing their Mormon duty to start dropping kids? Also, at MTC are the sexes mixed or separate training? I presume in the field there was no mixed gender teams.

What about race and age? Are there many Asians? Blacks? Latinos? Is it only a young person's gig? Do people come to the MTC from around the world?

You also said families finance the whole gig? What about the less well off? Are there scholarships or grants or whatever it is called?

Lastly, thanks to both of you again. Your contributions are one of the few things that keep this whole boondoggle from being consigned to AAH.
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I grew up in Utah and attended high school there. Yes, you could ask but you were not guaranteed. I understand a committee makes the decision but I don't know that for a fact. I wanted to stay stateside because I wanted baptisms. I was very happy to get Southern California. The missionaries gave the moniker to the mission simply because of Disneyland. I don't remember how much but it was a lot. At the MTC there was mixed training. I saved from my mission and I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition. No bondo I only used led and I block sanded it for days. It was gorgeous and remains one of my biggest regrets. What I couldn't afford my family paid for. The church does supply funds for those who absolutely cannot afford it.

Think about it though, a sales force that pays its own way.
 
RandFan said:
Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all.
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Uuh, that was a real question :D Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell…
 
Akuma Tennou said:
Uuh, that was a real question :D Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell…
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I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?
 
RandFan said:
I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?
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Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker.:)
 
tsig said:
Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker.:)
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It's a bit more involved than that. It was at the end of the meal, during casual conversation it would work like this, "Brother and Sister Jensen, as you know we rely on friendshiping and referrals from members for many of our potential converts. Do you know of anyone who has experienced a life changing event? Someone who just strarted college or just left home to move into a new appartment. Someone who was recently married, or had a baby or someone who is going through a divorce, lost their job or who has lost a loved on.

Something like that. I don't know if they still do it but I can tell you it worked when I was in the field.
 
My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc.

The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.

RandFan, were you hammered with this meme?
 
halleyscomet said:
I see no reason to trust Janadele to get this detail right. Her sons would not necessarily have a reason to tell her if they received such instruction. Even if she asked them point blank if they DID receive such instruction, there's no guarantee they would even remember it, or have thought enough of it at the time to take note of it.

Janadele's statements about what instruction her sons did or did not receive are hearsay at best, a second hand report.

I am tempted to suggest that she might be willing to deliberately misrepresent what instruction her sons received if she feels the truth casts Mormonism in a negative light. While such speculation is, in my view, a reasonable extrapolation of her previous comments, I see no reason to seriously consider duplicity where less sinister explanations suffice.

TL;DR

I give more weight to the first hand account than to the second hand hearsay.
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Indeed, which is why I included that "if, in fact" part.
 
abaddon said:
Isn't that just a tad cynical?
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See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.
 
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Marcus said:
My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc.

The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.

RandFan, were you hammered with this meme?
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There is a persecution complex among Mormons. And to be sure there are some malicious people who are anti-Mormon. It's easy to see criticism as unfair persecution. The meme is common IMO.
 
For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith.

The martyr syndrome.
 
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Seems to hold no small sway among modern day Muslims as well. It's probably true for other sects as well, we just don't hear that much about them in the western media.
 
Marcus said:
The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.
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I certainly got it all the time from the Mormon I debated on another board. It doesn't matter if the source of the information is an expert (archeologist, geneticist, historian) who never heard of the LDS, if the information contradicts LDS doctrine it's an anti-Mormon source.

The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense.
 
I've seen this behavior among other Christian denominations as well. They have the advantage of relying on the unverifiable nature of events that happened 2,000 years ago though.

The problem LDS has is that they are so new. Smith's antics are recent enough to generate an extra aura of silliness. When you think about it a flying gold tablet or magic hat is probably no worse than a loaves to fishes transformation or a stroll over the water, many of us are just so used to hearing the latter claims that they've become almost ordinary.
 
deaman said:
For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith.

The martyr syndrome.
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There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion.

But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with.

In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion.

The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom.
 
RandFan said:
See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.
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I think that's one reason Janadele claimed her sons received no such instruction. To the person receiving the instruction it won't necessarily feel like a cynical ploy to exploit the vulnerable, but a means of finding those in the most need. As Obi-Wan Kenobi said "It's all in your point of view." Manipulative actions can be easily depicted in a beneficial light.
 
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Pixel42 said:
The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense.
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It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves

In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages.

Did god get it wrong?
 
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Pup said:
There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion.

But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with.

In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion.

The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom.
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What I hear you saying is that people who have this kind of martyr syndrome, would have it whether they were religious or not. It has to do with the absence of self-esteem of the person. It is the actions of a person in need of validation.
 
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