LDS

[Sideroxylon]

And then could you explain the trinity? Most if not all Christian faiths and those that are based in part on Christianity are polytheistic they just don't want to admit it.

That's an opinion shared by a lot of Muslims. Perhaps the LDS need a Thomas Aquinas to couch their doctrine in some clever sounding but inscrutable explanation.

 

[RandFan]

That's an opinion shared by a lot of Muslims. Perhaps the LDS need a Thomas Aquinas to couch their doctrine in some clever sounding but inscrutable explanation.

Exactly.

 

[DragonLady]

Janadele, you do realize those feelings of heightened awareness and spiritual alignment with the universe have been a part of human experience sinse the caves of Toulouse or beyond, right?

It's the "transcendental" part of medition. It's the "high" of a lot of very illegal drugs. It's the "vision quest" of the native Americans...it's nothing new. And certainly nothing Christian or LDS in origin -it predates both by thousands of years.

 

[MIKILLINI]

"Every incorrect choice we make, every sin we commit is a violation of eternal law... We can do nothing of ourselves to satisfy the demands of justice for a broken eternal law." http://www.lds.org/new-era/2010/03/finding-forgiveness?lang=eng&query="eternal+law"

I find quite confusing how you could up a post like this while blindly following a false witness in Joe Smith, a mere mortal. His "Mormon" moment and the receiving of the 'Golden Tablets?" story has been, in this thread, shown to appear as made up. But yet you follow this violater of eternal law....Or is deception and lying not considered a sin?

 

[DragonLady]

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). Through Him mercy can be fully extended to each of us without offending the eternal law of justice...And by eternal law, mercy cannot be extended save there be one who is both willing and able to assume our debt and pay the price and arrange the terms for our redemption." http://www.lds.org/liahona/2011/04/the-mediator-jesus-christ?lang=eng&query="eternal+law"

Hmmm..there you are, quoting the Bible. Are you sure that passage was translated correctly? How can you be sure?

"Every incorrect choice we make, every sin we commit is a violation of eternal law... We can do nothing of ourselves to satisfy the demands of justice for a broken eternal law." http://www.lds.org/new-era/2010/03/finding-forgiveness?lang=eng&query="eternal+law"

No. That doesn't work.

By that reasoning, everytime I try to fit the wrong housekey into my front door, I've violated "eternal law" and must go hide in the closet to repent. And I break it again if I attempt to turn the closet doorknob the wrong direction. And I break it again if I knock something off a closet shelf while I'm attempting to hide.... My violations in a single day would overburder the cosmic record keeper's ability to record them! Now multiply that by the millions of people right here in Arizona, and you realize you've bitten off more than any Angel can chew.

We humans are not capable of breaking the laws of Mother Nature. We are hard-wired one way, and we cannot undo that way. We cannot stop making incorrect choices, no matter what we do. We are not living in a perfect universe, and we are not even capable of really understanding the concept of going through a day without making some small mistake.

Further...the kind of absolute honesty and absolute morality that you seem to be calling for would cause most of us far more grief than anything else. If telling someone you like their hat when in fact you really don't is a violation of eternal law, just imagine what hell a person would go through trying to make absolutely certain they never, ever, ever tell even the smallest "white lie" or embellish a story or even fail to tell the entire, unedited truth in every circumstance. To do so would not only reveal human failings no one wants to share, it would be far too much information for anyone to want to hear.

"The source and cause of true happiness are gospel truth and obedience to eternal law." http://www.lds.org/friend/2011/03/how-can-the-gospel-help-me-be-happy?lang=eng&query="eternal+law"

No. The source and cause of true happiness is coming to terms with your own life and circumstances, and learning to be at peace with both who you are, and how you have reacted -and will react- to the things that happen to you well enough to strive toward your own goals and desires.

"Revelation from God is always compatible with His eternal law" http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/ask-seek-knock?lang=eng&query="eternal+law"

No. We know better. Revelation from God has led to many, many things that are now considered deadly sins. Even the LDS have been forced to amend the "eternal law" to fit into the society and nation they were part of. Revelation from God is also ignored daily 'round the world, even by the LDS: we don't stone adulterers or jail people for wearing suits made of linen and wool, and I'll bet $10.00 you have at least one credit card despite the Biblical injunction against borrowing money.

 

[SezMe]

Janadele, Janadele, Janadele. Those links aren't to scripture. Those are just the opinions of some guys. Don't you have an opinion of your own that you can defend on your own? Or does it get back to that bit about women not being all that significant, so they can't have opinions of their own?

I infer that this Eternal Law^TM that Janadele alludes to is much like the burning bosom phenomenon. It's a feeling that you know is right. It is not something to be conveyed in mere words that mere mortals such as you and I use. No, it's writ large on the cosmic conscience.

The problem is probably the use of the word "law". It's probably more helpful to think of it as the Eternal Guilt^TM set out by the Eternal Spook^TM (aka, the Eternal Sadist^TM) written on the Eternal Slabs^TM which can only be read by using the Eternal Rocks^TM placed in the Eternal Hat^TM.

You're welcome - always eternally glad to help.

 

[Janadele]

Janadele - Did it ever cross your mind that maybe, that embarrassment you feel, is your actual conscience?

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

Are you sure? I'd want to hide in a deep cave somewhere if I made claims like:

You can tell who the devil is by shaking hands[sic]

and

Negros are something other then black people [sic]

 

[RandFan]

Are you sure? I'd want to hide in a deep cave somewhere if I made claims like:

You can tell who the devil is by shaking hands[sic]

and

Negros are something other then black people [sic]

Don't forget that Mormon leaders can tell who is a real negro.

 

[deaman]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

Janadele my dear -

I am the only one, in the conversation we are having, who is "speaking for himself". I am not the one constantly turning to some archaic, made up book, to explain myself.

People have asked you to answer for yourself, but you won't, for some reason. All the answers you have, come pre-packaged for you. Can you answer for yourself, at all?

Look, I am trying to have a serious, respectful, conversation with you, about some points in your beliefs, which I find incredulous. Maybe you could ask your god about my past, to find out about my spirituality, hmm?

How dare you disrespect someone who believes different then you. You have a right to believe any way you want to thanks to the country I live in. In fact, while I may not agree, I will stand up for you to believe it.

However, you came here for a reason, right?

I do not understand your last response. Are you indicating that I am less than you, in spiritual matters, because you believe you have some kind of connection with god. You have still not answered any of my direct questions.

I totally believe I hit the nail on the head. It is your own conscience you would go up against in the matters of murder and racism. In your church's jargon it would be like going against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin. I will not go against my own conscience for anybody, or any god, of which I believe exactly none, exist. Can you understand my point of view, as a human being because, that is WHAT I AM. I am the one speaking truth.

I don't go to a church and call myself a saint, because that would be telling a dishonest lie. I am not a saint, have never been one, and do not look to be one. I AM WHAT I AM. A human being with all the strengths and weaknesses, passions and foibles that come with reality.

I can answer honestly, in a given situation, I would kill, to protect my family or country. And my consciense is clean.

I have some racism in me because of how, and where I was raised. It is a fact. My conscience is clear.

I speak honestly what I think and feel, no need to lie. My conscience is clear.

I will not give my conscince away to some book, or some other people. I answer for myself, to all, always.

If there were a god, he would be looking for people like me.

But, there isn't one Janadele. It is just you, and me.

 

[deaman]

Janadele - Let me expand.

I would not kill someone, because I thought "someone", a disembodied spirit, was telling me to. I would think myself deluded, before I did that.

I would not treat someone differently, becuase someone calling themselves a prophet, told me it was so. I would feel terrible about that. I respect people for who and what they are, shown by their actions.

I cannot go against my own conscience (My holy ghost, as it were.). Not ever, for someone, outside of myself.

I am responsible.

There is no god, there is no jesus, there is no holy spirit. But, the good attributes of each, I can create and sustain. No paranormal BS. No heavenly reward necessary.

Your gods "spirit" is in me! and in all the people who think for themselves.

 

[deaman]

Janadele -

The more I think about your statement, the more I think of the stories in the bible about the self-righteous pharisee's. Wasn't their problem being hypocritical self-righteous, pompous, bloated with greed and selfishness?

How dare you talk down to people about spirituality and worth. You owe them an apology.

 

[AdMan]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

What about tediousness, Janadele? This whole attempt at trying to get you to actually discuss something honestly is getting to be so incredibly tedious...

You are making the LDS appear as one of the most closed-minded religious groups this side of the Taliban (slight exaggeration to make a point).

 

[Astreja]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

Janadele, the above is a truly shameful and presumptuous statement on your part. Throughout this thread, IMO you have demonstrated a truly alarming gullibility, manifested by your obsessive defence of pseudo-prophet Joseph Smith. On the subject of understanding and knowledge, it does appear that the non-believers hold the high ground after you failed to address the blatant discrepancies between Smith's "Book of Abraham" and the Book of Breathing as translated by Egyptologists.

And you still haven't answered My question from earlier: If you and I both had very similar, extraordinary experiences of a "spiritual" nature, but have almost diametrically opposed beliefs, how do you explain this?

 

[RandFan]

What about tediousness, Janadele? This whole attempt at trying to get you to actually discuss something honestly is getting to be so incredibly tedious...

You are making the LDS appear as one of the most closed-minded religious groups this side of the Taliban (slight exaggeration to make a point).

Janadele -

The more I think about your statement, the more I think of the stories in the bible about the self-righteous pharisee's. Wasn't their problem being hypocritical self-righteous, pompous, bloated with greed and selfishness?

How dare you talk down to people about spirituality and worth. You owe them an apology.

Janadele, the above is a truly shameful and presumptuous statement on your part. Throughout this thread, IMO you have demonstrated a truly alarming gullibility, manifested by your obsessive defence of pseudo-prophet Joseph Smith. On the subject of understanding and knowledge, it does appear that the non-believers hold the high ground after you failed to address the blatant discrepancies between Smith's "Book of Abraham" and the Book of Breathing as translated by Egyptologists.

And you still haven't answered My question from earlier: If you and I both had very similar, extraordinary experiences of a "spiritual" nature, but have almost diametrically opposed beliefs, how do you explain this?

Janadele, talk to people. Open up and express your opinions. No one cares about the propaganda.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Little gods have great gods over their heads to smite 'em,
And great gods have greater gods, and so ad infinitum.

...Yeah, but the elder gods have Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

 

[Craig4]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

What is your goal here? It's obviously not to persuade anyone to join your religion. What would other Mormons say about your performance here? Do you think they'd be proud of you? If so, why?

 

[Crossbow]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

So I guess that means Jim Baker was not embarrassed when he was caught fooling around with his secretary and stealing church funds.
So I guess that means Jimmy Swaggart was not embarrassed when he was caught fooling around with a prostitute.
So I guess that means Ted Haggard was not embarrassed when he was caught fooling around with drugs and male prostitutes.

And so on ..

 

[Flo]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

That's true, non-believers aren't brainwashed and are therefore not ready to swallow such lies, fakery and assorted fantasies.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Janadele, talk to people. Open up and express your opinions. No one cares about the propaganda.

Unfortunately, I know from experience (as I'm sure you do, too) that very often a major function of religious indoctrination is to assure that one does not have opinions of one's own.