LDS

[Akuma Tennou]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

Waw, so when you get happily hunting with your family in the woods and inadvertently come to break your iron bow you don't feel no embarrassment at all? It sucks to be atheist, I'll change my mind , thanks!

 

[Marcus]

What is your goal here? It's obviously not to persuade anyone to join your religion. What would other Mormons say about your performance here? Do you think they'd be proud of you? If so, why?

Perhaps she thinks that if she could find even one gullible person among the wasteland of skeptics, all the trouble would be worthwhile.

Alternatively, the experience itself could be providing a martyrs satisfaction, she can brag that her faith is strong because she withstood the onslaughts of the heathens.

 

[jsfisher]

I think it fair to say Janadele took up Mormonism as a point in her life steeped in turmoil. Some major life-changing event made her very receptive to the LDS testimony.

And that leads to a question I have. Are LDS missionaries taught to target vulnerable individuals for their message? Something as perhaps as simple as reviewing the obituaries listed in a local paper?

 

[RandFan]

Perhaps she thinks that if she could find even one gullible person among the wasteland of skeptics, all the trouble would be worthwhile.

Alternatively, the experience itself could be providing a martyrs satisfaction, she can brag that her faith is strong because she withstood the onslaughts of the heathens.

I confess to having similar sentiments when I was a true blue Mormon. More importantly, we often debate to prove to ourselves that our beliefs are correct and our faith is strong. Certainly she thinks her beliefs vindicated for having survived her time here. Never mind that she admits that she pays no attention to the counter arguments.

 

[Empress]

I think it fair to say Janadele took up Mormonism as a point in her life steeped in turmoil. Some major life-changing event made her very receptive to the LDS testimony.

And that leads to a question I have. Are LDS missionaries taught to target vulnerable individuals for their message? Something as perhaps as simple as reviewing the obituaries listed in a local paper?

I've had several family members go on missions, and I've never heard of anything like that. They do grab an available chance, however. When my nephew was on a mission in Greece, the missionaries were allowed to proselytize on the sidewalk. Once while they were doing that, the cops said they were breaking the law, and arrested them. While they were in jail, my nephew promptly started proselytizing to the other inmates, and actually got some bites before they got released.

I think it's more that they just cold-call and if they find someone like Janadele they snag her with everything they've got, or they get leads from members and follow up. Of course, some missionaries might pull such underhanded tactics, but I'd be surprised if it's widespread.

 

[RandFan]

I think it fair to say Janadele took up Mormonism as a point in her life steeped in turmoil. Some major life-changing event made her very receptive to the LDS testimony.

And that leads to a question I have. Are LDS missionaries taught to target vulnerable individuals for their message? Something as perhaps as simple as reviewing the obituaries listed in a local paper?

Yes. I've made that point a few times in this thread. We were told to look for newlyweds, new parents, those who suffered the death of a loved one, loss of job, graduation, people who recently became good friends with a Mormon. Good and bad events can be very powerful. AIU, other cults and churches do likewise. Odd that god should have a marketing dept.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Is it even necessary to teach them to target vulnerable folks? Seems like something that anyone spending time in a sales (same thing) position will pick up automatically, without even realizing they're doing it.

 

[Empress]

Yes. I've made that point a few times in this thread. We were told to look for newlyweds, new parents, those who suffered the death of a loved one, loss of job, graduation, people who recently became good friends with a Mormon. Good and bad events can be very powerful. AIU, other cults and churches do likewise. Odd that god should have a marketing dept.

I didn't think that missionaries were allowed to read the paper. I can see honing in on those people once you have the chance, but did you actually read announcements like birth, death, etc and specifically target them? (Perhaps I'm reading jsfisher's post too literally.)

 

[RandFan]

I didn't think that missionaries were allowed to read the paper. I can see honing in on those people once you have the chance, but did you actually read announcements like birth, death, etc and specifically target them? (Perhaps I'm reading jsfisher's post too literally.)

No, we didn't read the papers. We frequently had dinners with Mormon families (almost nightly) and we would ask them questions about friends and relatives. That's where we got most of our prospective contacts. A free meal and referrals. A good deal for a missionary. I knocked doors 6 days a week for two years and only baptized two people I found going door to door. I baptized or was involved in the baptism of dozens of people.

 

[Craig4]

No, we didn't read the papers. We frequently had dinners with Mormon families (almost nightly) and we would ask them questions about friends and relatives. That's where we got most of our prospective contacts. A free meal and referrals. A good deal for a missionary. I knocked doors 6 days a week for two years and only baptized two people I found going door to door. I baptized or was involved in the baptism of dozens of people.

I totally don't want to pick at a painful spot here. I am curious though to know what you would say now to those dozens of people who were baptized. I fully appreciate that this might be rubbing salt in a wound so please feel free to not answer.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I've had several family members go on missions, and I've never heard of anything like that. They do grab an available chance, however. When my nephew was on a mission in Greece, the missionaries were allowed to proselytize on the sidewalk. Once while they were doing that, the cops said they were breaking the law, and arrested them. While they were in jail, my nephew promptly started proselytizing to the other inmates, and actually got some bites before they got released.

I think it's more that they just cold-call and if they find someone like Janadele they snag her with everything they've got, or they get leads from members and follow up. Of course, some missionaries might pull such underhanded tactics, but I'd be surprised if it's widespread.

Coffee is not even for closers at the Mormons though.

 

[Empress]

No, we didn't read the papers. We frequently had dinners with Mormon families (almost nightly) and we would ask them questions about friends and relatives. That's where we got most of our prospective contacts. A free meal and referrals. A good deal for a missionary. I knocked doors 6 days a week for two years and only baptized two people I found going door to door. I baptized or was involved in the baptism of dozens of people.

Cool. Thanks.

 

[halleyscomet]

Speak for yourself deaman. It is only non believers who have no understanding and little knowledge of Spiritual matters who have reason to be embarrassed.

Why would a non-believer have any embarrassment about a religion about which they do not adhere?

Do you feel embarrassment over your profound lack of knowledge about Islam?

The only potential source of embarrassment in this thread is your dogged refusal to even address any of the criticisms raised against things such as the "Book of Abraham" forgery. Saying that the LDS church considers the proven forgery to be a religious text only gives us reason to think the LDS run by idiots and con men.

 

[Janadele]

Halley, My comment you refer to was a response post to insults to myself from deaman.

Jeff Lindsay has interesting observations on the Book of Abraham at the following links:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml Part 1

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml Part 2

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/boa.shtml Part 3

The FAIR Wiki:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquity

Kerry Shirts' Book of Abraham articles:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/papyri.htm

KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/lostbook.htm

"The Jewish Origin of the Book of Abraham" by Jonathan Moyer, a scholarly paper exploring the ancient Jewish roots of the Book of Abraham:
http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html

 

[Sideroxylon]

Halley, My comment you refer to was a response post to insults to myself from deaman.

Jeff Lindsay has interesting observations on the Book of Abraham at the following links:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml Part 1

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml Part 2

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/boa.shtml Part 3

The FAIR Wiki:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquity

Kerry Shirts' Book of Abraham articles:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/papyri.htm

KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/lostbook.htm

"The Jewish Origin of the Book of Abraham" by Jonathan Moyer, a scholarly paper exploring the ancient Jewish roots of the Book of Abraham:
http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html

These people have some interesting observations on the Book of Abraham:
http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/book_abraham.html

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4168

The cruel and unfair Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

The very silly and even unfairer Wiki:
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mormons

Am I doing this forum discussion thing right, Janadele?

 

[halleyscomet]

Halley, My comment you refer to was a response post to insults to myself from deaman.

Jeff Lindsay has interesting observations on the Book of Abraham at the following links:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml Part 1

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml Part 2

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/boa.shtml Part 3

The FAIR Wiki:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquity

Kerry Shirts' Book of Abraham articles:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/papyri.htm

KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/lostbook.htm

"The Jewish Origin of the Book of Abraham" by Jonathan Moyer, a scholarly paper exploring the ancient Jewish roots of the Book of Abraham:
http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html

Wow.

There's a lot of denial in those links. It's very telling that the best defense that can be mustered boils down to denying the surviving fragments are the ones Smith used as the source for The Book of Abraham. Thank you. I had no idea the Mormon defense to the criticism was so shallow and childish.

 

[RandFan]

I totally don't want to pick at a painful spot here. I am curious though to know what you would say now to those dozens of people who were baptized. I fully appreciate that this might be rubbing salt in a wound so please feel free to not answer.

No please, ask me any question. It would depend on the context and I would let them lead. I would inform them I'm no longer Mormon and if they asked me why I would explain. I was sincere when I proselytized so I don't feel remorse for having led them into Mormonism. I suspect it would be awkard and if they were active members it probably would be a short conversation. But I would honestly answer any question they put to me.

 

[Empress]

"The Jewish Origin of the Book of Abraham" by Jonathan Moyer, a scholarly paper exploring the ancient Jewish roots of the Book of Abraham:
http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html

From your scholarly text:

Historical Background of the Papyri

In order to understand the BA a brief recitation of its modern extraction may be helpful. In 1835 Michael Chandler brought several mummies to Kirtland that aroused great excitement among the Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith too took note of these objects from antiquity. Initially attracted by his native curiosity, Smith soon realized the significance of the ancient artifacts. Upon examining some of the writing on the papyri accompanying the mummies, Joseph noticed some resemblance to those characters on the plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon. This was Smith's first indication that there may have been more to the mummies than mere objects of curiosity. Applying his abilities towards an understanding of the characters, Smith soon presented Chandler with a brief translation of some of these characters, with which Chandler was duly impressed. Only after later and more extensive examination of the scrolls did Joseph learn that the scrolls contained writings allegedly originating with the great patriarchal figures of Israel's past. The similarity in writing systems of these two communities is compelling, as not only did it signify to Joseph Smith the great importance of the papyri, but perhaps it also helped him decipher the full meaning of those writings. Perhaps the similarity in writing systems Smith observed led him to tentatively posit larger connections between the respective communities which had produced the Book of Mormon and the papyri accompanying the mummies. Some early witnesses identified Hebrew characters on the papyri in addition to the Egyptian elements. As William I. Appleby said, "The writings are chiefly in the Egyptian language, with the exception of a little Hebrew." Appleby's identification of Hebrew characters meshes well with the BM writing Joseph first noticed on the papyri. This connection of the Book of Abraham with the Book of Mormon could also provide the key to our own understanding of the Book of Abraham and the individual or community that produced it.

I don't recommend delving too deeply if you want to maintain a belief in the basic intelligence of the human species.

 

[halleyscomet]

From your scholarly text:


I don't recommend delving too deeply if you want to maintain a belief in the basic intelligence of the human species.

I find it fascinating that the "witnesses" claiming there were Hebrew characters on the Papyri are not dismissed as unreliable given the lack of Hebrew characters on the surviving Papyri.

 

[RandFan]

Wow.

There's a lot of denial in those links. It's very telling that the best defense that can be mustered boils down to denying the surviving fragments are the ones Smith used as the source for The Book of Abraham. Thank you. I had no idea the Mormon defense to the criticism was so shallow and childish.

When I was learning about the various controversies over Mormon history I suffered a lot of dissonance. It's amazing how free one can be by simply accepting the truth no matter what that truth is. It might hurt at first but in the long run it's worth the peace of mind.

These apologetics in my opinion are as bad as the husband with perfume and lipstick on his collar who swears it's a specially scented red paint that dripped on him while his office was being painted.

That sinking feeling in your gut is where you will find the truth. Not the silly stories.