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Janadele said:
Olowkow: see Post 3779.
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...which refers you to another post:

Janadele said:
Cleon,
Slowvehicle…
Your comments are taken from anti-Mormon literature and have no basis in reality.

Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham.
New Era, January 1968.
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:deadhorse
 
Janadele said:
A reminder that the topic of THIS thread is LDS, not "anti-Mormon" or "whatever". Those who have no interest in the actual Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should state their beliefs in a more appropriate thread.
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A reminder that this is a skeptics site. It's not a propaganda wing of the LDS Church.
 
Janadele said:
Let us read again the quote responded to:
"mistaken" would have been a better choice of word for pakeha to have used when framing the question. However, the plain and simple fact is, that this statement/question posed by pakeha:
"when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth" ... whoever "they" may be, are most certainly incorrect, mistaken, and making a statement which is not the truth.
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More transparently weasel words. Don't you have enough christian humility to admit when you yourself have been careless in your expression?

You should simply admit you made a mistake, and move on.

Oh, and apologise to all the hard-working scientists and scholars whose life work you have insulted.
 
Janadele said:
<snip>

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
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Well of course it doesn't.

There's no such thing as the Book of Abraham on any papyrus anywhere.
 
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Michael Rhodes , a BYU professor with an extremely impressive vita, is one of the experts who delved into the hieroglyphs of the papyri claimed as the source of Joseph Smith's translations. He agreed with other non-Mormons.

It doesn't matter if all of the texts/papyri were available, as your referenced previous post implied, does it Janadele?

I'm confused. Is he lying? What is his motive? Is he just mistaken? Is he a renegade?


The translation by both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists bears no resemblance to the text of the Book of Abraham as purportedly translated by Joseph Smith. Several excerpts of these modern translations are shown below.
BYU scholar Michael Rhodes summarized the content of the papyri as follows:
"The Hor Book of Breathings is a part of eleven papyri fragments... from three separate papyri scrolls. Joseph Smith Papyri I, X, and XI are from the Book of Breathings belonging to Hor (Hr) the son of Usirwer. Joseph Smith Papyri II, IV, V, VI, VII, and IX all came from a Book of the Dead belonging to Tshemmim (Ts-sri.t Min.), the daughter of Eskhons (Ns-Hnsw). Finally, Joseph Smith Papyrus III is part of Chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead belonging to Neferirtnub (Nfr-ir(.t)-nbw).[80]
​
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Janadele said:
The majority of comments which have been posted regarding the Book of Abraham are entirely inappropriate of Sacred matters and are in fact religious persecution.
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What part of "this is a skeptic site" do you not understand? JREF exists to do exactly what we are doing.

This is, in part, the JREF mission statement:

About the JREF said:
The James Randi Educational Foundation was founded in 1996 to help people defend themselves from paranormal and pseudoscientific claims. The JREF offers a still-unclaimed million-dollar reward for anyone who can produce evidence of paranormal abilities under controlled conditions. Through scholarships, workshops, and innovative resources for educators, the JREF works to inspire this investigative spirit in a new generation of critical thinkers.
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You are making paranormal claims. It's expected that your claims be challenged. You need to also understand that we believe that blasphemy is a means to control people and we will not kowtow to any claims of deity nor will we respect it.

You are posting on a skeptics site. Do not think for a moment that your superstition is going to be treated any different than all of the others.
 
Janadele said:
Let us read again the quote responded to:
"mistaken" would have been a better choice of word for pakeha to have used when framing the question. However, the plain and simple fact is, that this statement/question posed by pakeha:
"when they say what Smith passed off as a 'translation' bears no resemblance to the truth" ... whoever "they" may be, are most certainly incorrect, mistaken, and making a statement which is not the truth.
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You really shouldn't rewrite others posts, it's more than rude it's dishonest.
 
I'm fully expecting Janadelle's branch president to find out about this thread and freak out!

I predict he will demand that she shut up immediately. She's already done irreparable harm to the credibility of LDS by demonstrating the fanatical underpinnings of membership in the church, and the corrosion of ability to think cohesively which results from attending to official church doctrine.
 
Janadele said:
Olowkow: From the New Era, January 1968.. "Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
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Self serving. The idea that Egyptians would include an account of a different religious experience, one that is critical of Egypt, would be included in an Egyptian religious ceremony is absurd. And note that even though we have found other Book of Breathings no other instance of the Book of Abraham have been found.

It's all convenient for the Mormons that the evidence is never available. The dog ate their homework.
 
Janadele said:
Olowkow: From the New Era, January 1968.. "Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
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So you're claiming that the BoA is a translation of the part of the papyri that was lost?
 
Cheezey D said:
I have been following this thread since the beginning and, although I have found it very interesting and informative, I have not felt the urge to contribute - up til now.

I am a professional field archaeologist and I take great exception to your accusation of lying by myself and my colleagues in this field of study. Although I am not an egyptologist (not many Egyptians in the south west of England, lol!) your comment does implicate me and my friends - or is it only those that study ancient Egyptians that lie?

I studied for years to be able to do my job and I work hard, all year round and in all weathers, in order to find out the truth about our ancestors and the way they lived their lives, and you have the audacity to just hand wave that away and say "oh they are liars"!

I really couldn't give a mummy's curse what drivel you want to believe, but when you dismiss the hard work and dedication of a whole professional body of people who dedicate their lives to finding the truth about our past and origins in favour of a con man telling obvious lies, then Madam, you offend me mightily!!

Sorry for the rant guys, that comment just made my blood boil! :mad:

D
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It takes a great deal of denial and ignorance of the scientific method for Janedele to make that claim. Scientists are not a monolithic clique. They often disagree and criticize each others work (peer review and critiques). A scientist that could demonstrate that Smith was telling the truth could really make a name for themselves.

The scientific method isn't about finding evidence for what we believe. The scientific method is, in part, challenging what we believe and attempting to falsify our beliefs. Nothing is sacred in science. There is no dogma.

Good post Cheezey.
 
Janadele said:
Cleon,
Slowvehicle…
Your comments are taken from anti-Mormon literature and have no basis in reality.

Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham.
New Era, January 1968.
Click to expand...

Smith's misrepresentation and fanciful filling in the gaps to come up with Facsimile 1 are damning enough.

D9mzLNl.jpg

0SPrSjb.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Facsimile_No._1
 
RandFan said:
It takes a great deal of denial and ignorance of the scientific method for Janedele to make that claim. Scientists are not a monolithic clique. They often disagree and criticize each others work (peer review and critiques). A scientist that could demonstrate that Smith was telling the truth could really make a name for themselves.

The scientific method isn't about finding evidence for what we believe. The scientific method is, in part, challenging what we believe and attempting to falsify our beliefs. Nothing is sacred in science. There is no dogma.

Good post Cheezey.
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Thanx RandFan!

I agree, what possible motive would we have to lie about things like this? As you have so rightly pointed out, if anyone could prove Smith was right they would have fame and fortune heaped upon them (by Mormons at least!).

D
 
RandFan said:
It takes a great deal of denial and ignorance of the scientific method for Janedele to make that claim. Scientists are not a monolithic clique. They often disagree and criticize each others work (peer review and critiques). A scientist that could demonstrate that Smith was telling the truth could really make a name for themselves.

The scientific method isn't about finding evidence for what we believe. The scientific method is, in part, challenging what we believe and attempting to falsify our beliefs. Nothing is sacred in science. There is no dogma.

Good post Cheezey.
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One of my favorite analogies is of science as a wall against which we crash all of our ideas. The ones that survive are the ones we keep, but they are still subjected to periodic crash tests.
 
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