LDS

[tsig]

I wonder what he really meant when he said, "No booze"?

It was really "no snooze", he was setting the night guards for Zion's Camp.

 

[tsig]

I'd like to get Janadele's thoughts on this as well. She has maintained that God had his reasons for withholding the priesthood from people of African descent. I wonder if she agrees with the "Brigham Young goofed" explanation?

Clearly it was the blacks fault, they weren't ready for the Priesthood and it took 140 years before the church got them up to snuff.

(yes Joe tried it that's how they found out)

 

[Janadele]

I'd like to get Janadele's thoughts on this as well. She has maintained that God had his reasons for withholding the priesthood from people of African descent...

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent... this restriction did not apply to worthy LDS males of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent. Since the days of Adam, the Lord has restricted and determined to whom He gave the privilege of His Priesthood.

 

[Jon.]

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent

Which Prophet would that be?

 

[RandFan]

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent... this restriction did not apply to worthy LDS males of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent. Since the days of Adam, the Lord has restricted and determined to whom He gave the privilege of His Priesthood.

Which Prophet would that be?

Are we talking about the same prophet who said "black skin" and "flat nose"?

 

[dudalb]

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent... this restriction did not apply to worthy LDS males of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent. Since the days of Adam, the Lord has restricted and determined to whom He gave the privilege of His Priesthood.

Of course you are saying that God is a Racist...

That's the problem that the LDS has with it's "Joseph Smith Was Infallible" doctrine:It has to defend every stupid thing that Smith said.
The Catholic Church is a lot smarter with it's limiting Papal Infalliblity;it gives them a "Get out of Jail Free" card for all the dumb things the pope have said and done.

 

[jsfisher]

To summarize then, according to skyrider44, Brigham Young was responsible for the racist proclamation that became LDS "law" for 140 or so years, and according to Janadele, God Himself was the racist.

On the one hand, we have a position that paints Brigham Young as a false prophet (and all other LDS prophets before or since), and on the other we have a position that racism was a holy dictum of a despicable but fickle God.

Well, at least the LDS Church offers choices.

 

[Akhenaten]

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent...

What's a negro?

. . . this restriction did not apply to worthy LDS males of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent.

How many of those folks availed themselves of this magnanimity

Since the days of Adam, the Lord has restricted and determined to whom He gave the privilege of His Priesthood.

Who else beside these as yet undefined negroes was restricted and why?

 

[Janadele]

Are we talking about the same prophet who said "black skin" and "flat nose"?

Such words were not used to determine Priesthood eligibility.
Scriptural language has always historically referenced unrighteousness with darkness, and purity with light. It should be remembered that meanings and interpretations of words have changed over time.

 

[Jon.]

Such words were not used to determine Priesthood eligibility.
Scriptural language has always historically referenced unrighteousness with darkness, and purity with light. It should be remembered that meanings and interpretations of words have changed over time.

Does that mean that Scripture has a different meaning now than it did in the past? Can you provide an example of a passage of Scripture that had a (true) meaning in the past, and has a different (but also true) meaning in the present, due to changes in the meanings and interpretation of words?

 

[RandFan]

Such words were not used to determine Priesthood eligibility.
Scriptural language has always historically referenced unrighteousness with darkness, and purity with light. It should be remembered that meanings and interpretations of words have changed over time.

....

"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness?

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages

For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness

...wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto [the Nephites] the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

=Pearl of Great Price “For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the bareness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people..."

Tell us what was meant here?

 

[Foster Zygote]

It was the Lord, through His Prophet, who for a short time and for His own reasons, withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy LDS males of Negro descent...

So your position is to disagree with skyrider44. You maintain that Brigham Young was not in error and that he really was relaying the will of God.

...this restriction did not apply to worthy LDS males of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent. Since the days of Adam, the Lord has restricted and determined to whom He gave the privilege of His Priesthood.

The fact that they only discriminated against dark skinned men of African descent (and all women) doesn't make it any less discriminatory. If a South Carolina plantation owner had said, "I don't own any slaves of Polynesian, Koori, or Native American descent", it wouldn't have made his enslavement of Africans any less immoral.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Such words were not used to determine Priesthood eligibility.
Scriptural language has always historically referenced unrighteousness with darkness, and purity with light. It should be remembered that meanings and interpretations of words have changed over time.

on Harwell, a black LDS Church member, said, "I remember being in a Sacrament meeting, pre-1978, and the sacrament was being passed and there was special care taken by this person that not only did I not officiate, but I didn't touch the sacrament tray. They made sure that I could take the sacrament, but that I did not touch the tray and it was passed around me. That was awfully hard, considering that often those who were officiating were young men in their early teens, and they had that priesthood. I valued that priesthood, but it wasn't available."

On June 8, 1978, the First Presidency released to the press an official declaration, now a part of the standard works of the church, which contained the following statement:
"He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the church may receive the Holy Priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that follows there from, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness."

In 1978, McConkie said:
"There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.... It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year."

On June 11, 1978, three days after the announcement of the revelation, Joseph Freeman, a member of the church since 1973, became the first black man to be ordained to the office of elder in the Melchizedek priesthood since the ban was lifted, while several others were ordained into the Aaronic priesthood that same day.

You can't claim that "black" just meant any man who wasn't moral enough to deserve the priesthood. The history of the LDS was clearly to deny priesthood to any black man.

 

[SezMe]

It should be remembered that meanings and interpretations of words have changed over time.

I can't wait for the explanation of how the phrase "flat nose" has changed over time.

 

[Janadele]

Jesus Christ directs His Church through His living Prophet... today, yesterday and tomorrow.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod...e-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

 

[RandFan]

Jesus Christ directs His Church today through His living Prophet, as He has always done.

So, when Brigham Young, the living prophet at that time, talked about Black people with flat noses why wasn't god telling him to knock it off?

See, that's the problem, you want us to believe god directs his church except when he doesn't. That's not a good way to build credibility. It sounds awfully self serving.

"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120).

Perhaps that is the problem. God is learning as he goes along.

 

[jsfisher]

Jesus Christ directs His Church through His living Prophet... today, yesterday and tomorrow.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod...e-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

Janadele, in all seriousness, you should consider some introspection regarding the content of your posts. You pass on officially sanctioned propaganda without the least bit of intellectual processing by you.

Cat Tale seems to be quite honest with herself and her religious beliefs. They are complicated and not necessarily fully consistent, buy she has reconciled any contradiction. Skyrider44 may be struggling a bit wrestling with conflicts between reality and his spiritual convictions, but he is at least engaged. (Alas, though, he often abandons discussion of all things LDS in favor of debate protocols and quibblemanship.)

You, on the other hand, are resolute in a copy/paste strategy with exactly zero mindful participation by you. Do you not ever think about the basis of your beliefs and the security of its foundation?

 

[Janadele]

These are my own words, as previously also. You may think as you please, as may I.

 

[RandFan]

These are my own words, as previously also. You may think as you please, as may I.

And about Brigham Young, was he god's prophet? If so why did god let Young say ugly racist things?

 

[jsfisher]

These are my own words, as previously also. You may think as you please, as may I.

Nonsense. You are the copy/paste queen of this thread. But more to the point, look at your prior post. It denies rather than promotes any sort of intelligent discussion. Is that the tenet of your belief system? Accept and never, ever question?

ETA: RandFan's question is better than mine. It continues to probe the root matter that Janadele continues to evade.