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Peter got it wrong several times, yet he labored directly under the counsel of Jesus Christ.

...is that your rationalization for the fact that BoM makes multiple mistaken assertions about the pre-Colombian Americas?
BTW, where is that list of those anachronisms that you said had been found, or proven to exist in the pre-Colombian Americas?
 
Which is why it's odd people followed Smith or Young. They were such low people of the basest sort. Their sexual activities were really beyond despicable. I wonder if learning the truth about the human cesspools that started the Mormon "religion" is why the church is losing so many members. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with an organization started by such vile people.

You cite not a single source for these reckless, slander-filled allegations.
 
You buy into the fiction that LDS prophets and leaders are infallible; they are not. Joseph Smith himself admitted to having made mistakes.

Sure, Joseph Smith made mistakes. Being that con artist was a salient example. But that's not the issue under discussion; you are conflating two entirely separate things.

Joseph Smith, speaking as prophet on behalf of God, should not be goofing up unless God Himself is fallible. That's part of what it takes to be a true prophet.

If your position is that despite that, Joseph Smith (and Brigham Young and ...) can be fallible in speaking for God, well, then you have painted him (and the others) as a false prophet. Without some a priori rule to decide which are right and which are not of a prophet's proclamations, all you are left with is an unreliable false prophet.
 
You cite not a single source for these reckless, slander-filled allegations.

It would be libel, not slander (although in reality it is neither). It is also clearly an opinion based on a general knowledge of the life and times of the persons involved.

You seem to have trouble recognizing statements of others as opinions. You also seem to demand a higher standard for the statements of others than you do your own.
 
BY didn't found "a" town or "a" city (I think you know that). Not so incidentally, he led the largest migration in U. S. history to a place no one else wanted (The American Journey, "A Haven in the Desert," p. 379).

People have died in droves for their beliefs in all manner of religions. This does nothing to prove the veracity of those beliefs, only the level of commitment that people had to them.
 
Of what value is a non-existent religion in doing God's work on earth?

How can it be "God's work" if it keeps changing to suit the evolving morality of human cultures? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that the followers of YHWH no longer call for the immediate execution of their own daughters for the "crime" of choosing who they want to have sex with, or strike dead any friend or family member who suggests joining another religion as was commanded in "God's word". But why is God's perfect morality so easily influenced by popular opinion?

Can you not see that the malleability of "God's perfect word" strongly suggests that it is no more than the product of humans?
 
There is nothing "oddly pragmatic" about it. Darwin's discoveries proved that.

Darwin's discoveries didn't show anything about replication of memes, since he was only addressing things which could be inherited, and religion of course isn't genetic.

But even if we apply evolution more broadly to social memes and say that a meme is more apt to succeed if it can be indoctrinated when children are young, then it is pragmatic to believe that what multiplies well, is by definition good or true.

Evolution is a mechanism to explain how things flourish, not a value judgment about those things.

Edited to add: And before we get into a semantic derail, I'm using this definition of pragmatic: "relating to matters of fact or practical affairs often to the exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters: practical as opposed to idealistic <pragmatic men of power have had no time or inclination to deal with ... social morality --K. B. Clark>"
Of what value is a non-existent religion in doing God's work on earth?

Other religions who think they're right would say: Of what value is a religion which abandons God's work in order to be popular?

Do you think (to cite just one example), it's "popular" to require members to pay 10% of their annual increase to the Church?

Going back to Darwin again, evolution doesn't predict that every single thing about an organism, or meme, is devoted solely to reproductive success; the detriments just need to not outweigh the benefits. There's a benefit to a church in receiving income, although there's a detriment to requiring its members to pay 10%--although a greater sacrifice from members may also encourage more devotion, so it may not even be completely detrimental from members' point of view.
 
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Do you think (to cite just one example), it's "popular" to require members to pay 10% of their annual increase to the Church?

Well, you've certainly got us there. Seeing as Mormonism is the only religion that has ever required any sacrifice from its followers, it must be true. The logic is air-tight.
 
People have died in droves for their beliefs in all manner of religions. This does nothing to prove the veracity of those beliefs, only the level of commitment that people had to them.
Muslims are happy to sacrifice their lives because the "know" they are right.
 
BY didn't found "a" town or "a" city (I think you know that). Not so incidentally, he led the largest migration in U. S. history to a place no one else wanted (The American Journey, "A Haven in the Desert," p. 379).

I challenge that. The migration from the Plain states during the Dust Bowl involved some 2,500,000 people. A rather incredible number, and without the aid of a racist false prophet.

If you want to include immigration and/or limit it to having a basis in religion, I am sure there are still other examples that would eclipse the 70,000 head count attributed to Brigham Young.
 
The quality of the harvest his labors produce.
Did you miss where I said, "objective"?

BY didn't found "a" town or "a" city (I think you know that). Not so incidentally, he led the largest migration in U. S. history to a place no one else wanted (The American Journey, "A Haven in the Desert," p. 379).
What is the minimum number before someone is objectively a true prophet?

You buy into the fiction that LDS prophets and leaders are infallible; they are not. Joseph Smith himself admitted to having made mistakes.
Obviously, I don't. (I think you knew that.) You buy into the belief that god(s) exist and some designated humans speak for them. If the person claiming to speak for god(s) speaks falsely, that proves them to be false prophets.

I personally lack belief in gods so I see all prophets as being false. Was BY a false prophet?

Are you bestowing godhood on Brigham Young?
Obviously not. BY existed. I bestow on him racisthood and charlatanhood.
 
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skyrider44, I've got an easy question for you. See your post 3099. Where do all the colons in the quotes come from? I see that often so it's not just that one post.
 
Good scripture. Note, however, that God works through fallible human beings--including prophets--who have their agency.
So Brigham Young was disobedient to god's will? God told Young that ugly racist statements are not seemly for a prophet of god and Young told god to go pound sand? Your explanations are desperate ad hoc rationalizations.
 
Are you sure you want me to?

I'm quite certain I have read more anti-LDS "literature" than you have. I'm familiar with all the critics' arguments. Do not, however, let that deter you; spill the whole can of worms.

BTW, have you found a credible source for your claim that Joseph Smith employed (or used the services of) abortionists?
 
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