LDS

[Pup]

This one?

Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.

It doesn't answer my question...

Actually... Maybe my first paragraph in this post will help :

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8941220&postcount=2788

Empress explained it pretty well, but yes, logic (using that word loosely) indicates that what's good enough for Brigham Young is good enough for God, so God has more than one wife. Strictly speaking, we're not all full brothers and sisters in Christ; we're mostly half brothers and half sisters.

You can see why Protestants and Catholics, who are used to imagining a lonely God who only had sex once with a woman named Mary, have a problem with Mormons teaching that God had sex once for every person on earth. It does answer the question of why spiritual beings need gender and genitalia, though.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It is not I who is confused

We're certainly confused as to how you determine what makes someone a "negro".

Here, let me help.

Ne*gro |ˈnēgrō|
noun ( pl. -groes)...

There. Now all you have to do is fill in a few sentences to define the above.

 

[Cleon]

I will never be able to understand how people try to justify/explain racism.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent, though not all persons of African descent are of Negro descent.

So which Africans are negroes and which are not?

 

[Agatha]

I have already given the following answers which are clearly all that is required:

For a short time, and for His own reasons, the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy males of Negro descent. They were always allowed the privilege of baptism, and of membership, through which they received the blessings of the Priesthood, without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent, though not all persons of African descent are of Negro descent.

Clearly this is not all that's required, as most participants in the thread still don't understand what you mean by 'Negroes'. If I have a hundred people of African descent* in front of me, how do I tell which ones are 'Negroes' and which ones are not?

*Leaving aside the fact that all humans are ultimately of African descent.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I have already given the following answers which are clearly all that is required:

For a short time, and for His own reasons, the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy males of Negro descent. They were always allowed the privilege of baptism, and of membership, through which they received the blessings of the Priesthood, without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent, though not all persons of African descent are of Negro descent.
Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.

<hymnsnip>

While I appreciate your response, it does not answer the question.The highlited portion is not an explanation, but a statement of the problem.

I ask, again, how is one to distinguish among a "person of African descent"; a "person of Negro descent"; and a "person with black skin"; particularly when there are no people with "black skin" (at most, humans approach a 'full city roast' dark purply-brown); there are no humans who are not of "African descent"; and "Negro" is an outdated false collective referring to a heterogeneous group neither genetically nor ethnically distinct?

While you are at it, any chance you might address my other questions?

 

[Sideroxylon]

I will never be able to understand how people try to justify/explain racism.

They usually don't. They dress it up as something else.

 

[Craig4]

It is not I who is confused

You believe both Smith and Young to be moral people. I can think of no better evidence of confusion.

 

[desertgal]

They usually don't. They dress it up as something else.

In this case, divine ordinance.

You have to think, if there is a "God", it can't thrill him to have this sort of thing palmed off on him all the time.

 

[Pup]

The whole problem of "what is a negro" is unfortunately one that the LDS church inherited from Brigham Young's era.

For what it's worth, here's how it was defined scientifically back in the day (starting about halfway down the page):

http://books.google.com/books?id=w1cSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA467&output=html

Robley Dunglison was a prominent author of medical books, and he's basing the definition on Cuvier there, so that's a pretty mainstream summary for the mid 19th century.

Brace yourself, because the racism is pretty bad, but you can see even then they were struggling with the cognitive dissonance of what was obviously true compared to what they wanted to believe: "This case of great intelligence in the negro is not unique; and it exhibits what may be expected from him under favourable circumstances. In almost all situations in which he is found, it is in the state of slavery, and degradation, and no inference can be deduced regarding his original... intellectual capability under such circumstances.... It must be admitted, however, that from organization, this race would seem to be, caeteris paribus, less fitted for intellectual distinction than the Caucasian."

For what it's worth, the representative "negro" pictured there is from this painting (reversed because the engraver just drew it as he saw it): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jacobus_Capitein.jpg

The problem is, as we now realize, that scientific-type people were picturing the "negro" as a pure archetype which became mixed as it blended with other pure archetypes like the "caucasian." So in places where dissimilar people mated, the darker skinned offspring weren't "negroes" anymore scientifically (by the science of the day), but white people still wanted them to be, socially and legally.

The same book goes over the issue of mixed-race people here (toward the bottom of the page):

http://books.google.com/books?id=w1cSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA308&output=html

So you had scientific definitions, legal definitions, and social definitions--all in conflict.

And that's why I (and probably most others here) predict that Janadele and the LDS church can never get beyond a definition that basically amounts to "We know 'em when we see 'em--you know, those kind of people."

 

[Myriad]

In this case, divine ordinance.

You mean, like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Oh, wait, you said ordinance. Never mind.

 

[desertgal]

You mean, like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Oh, wait, you said ordinance. Never mind.

I've heard they have the HHGoA at the Salt Lake temple, though. Right next to the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Cat Tale]

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent,& not confined to African Americans nor to skin colour, nor are all persons of African descent of Negro descent.

Aha! It just occured to me what Janadele may be saying, when she says "negro descent" is not confined to skin color. Brigham Young said, "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood." So, she's right, it's not confined to the color of one's skin, it was according to one's pedigree. Either way it's still racist.

 

[jsfisher]

For a short time, and for His own reasons, the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy males of Negro descent. They were always allowed the privilege of baptism, and of membership, through which they received the blessings of the Priesthood, without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Not true. Doctrines and Covenants 134:12 is clear the LDS Church would deny black slaves any privilege, as you so poetically put it, contrary to the wishes of the slave owner.

The Sharpie of Damnation has deep roots in Mormon teachings. It makes me wonder, too, why D&C doesn't stand for Dogma and Contradiction, since that would be a more accurate characterization.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Brigham Young said, "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood".

Yikes! Even the Nuremberg Laws weren't that strict.

*Godwin for three points on page 71!*

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I will never be able to understand how people try to justify/explain racism.

Cognitive dissonance theory explains it nicely

 

[Hokulele]

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent,& not confined to African Americans nor to skin colour, nor are all persons of African descent of Negro descent.

To make it clearer, can you name one living person, preferably well-known enough that we can find an image or short biography of them, that is a Negro?

 

[carlitos]

More nonsense spouted by a brainwashed human robot who's incapable of free thought, as is obvious. The Mormon Church is a cult that will deprive you of free thought. Stay clear!

Tom Cruise and I saw what you did there.

I think there's a mindset that little offshoot religions--because they're an offshoot--should be held to a higher standard, because if they're starting fresh and are putting up with persecutation anyway, they can break any norms they want. And that's true.

I don't disagree, but it seems strange not to hold all of Christianity to the same standard, as they stapled a nice Jesus story onto a book that still had Deuteronomy and Leviticus in it.

It was the Negro male... whether from America, the Congo, or Tim Buck Too. It was not the Maori, the Koori, the Samoan...
What is offensive about Negro? It is the name of the race. As is Asian etc

So you are somehow attempting to escape the racist connotations of the word by saying that Negro does not mean black. What defines the "Negro race"?

How does one determine whether a person is a negro or not?

To make it clearer, can you name one living person, preferably well-known enough that we can find an image or short biography of them, that is a Negro?

Janadele could use the same criteria that the Apartheid government used. Simples.

• Stick a pencil in their hair and see how easy it is to pull out.
• Measure their noses and cheekbones.
• "the eyelid test" to see how much their eyelid color contrasts with the rest of their skin.
• Feel their earlobes for pliancy.
• Check their genitals for color.
• Body hair exam.
• Soccer or rugby?
• Bed height - high or low?
• Beer or liquor?
• Job held?
• Accent?
• "I know it when I see it" - that Spanish-looking chick has signs of a dusky admixture.

I would guess that the LDS leaders would probably have developed a bribery system like the Apartheid guys did, and Indians or Mexicans or whomever could get their status changed with the right donation. Unfortunately, LDS was even more racist than the most racist regime on Earth, because God and his prophets were American, so he used the "not one drop of Negro blood" standard.

 

[RandFan]

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent, though not all persons of African descent are of Negro descent.

What's the difference between the two?

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887

When Eliza Snow says something it's scripture but when Brigham Young says something it isn't. That's inconsistent.

 

[RandFan]

Of Negro descent, is also of African descent, though not all persons of African descent are of Negro descent.

What's the difference between the two?

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887

When Eliza Snow says something it's scripture but when Brigham Young says something it isn't. That's inconsistent.

We can't advance the discussion if you don't respond in a meaningful way Janadele. Posting scripture is a waste of everyone's time.