LDS

[Pup]

Cat Tale tipped me off to this.

http://people.ucsc.edu/~odonovan/elder_walker_lewis.html

It's long and heavily footnoted, but it gives the life story of Mormon elder Walker Lewis, an interesting fellow, and lays out a case for perhaps why the LDS church turned more racist than its New England origins might have predicted.

Lewis was a radical abolitionist, a prominent organizer of and participant in the Underground Railroad, a Most Worshipful Grand Master of Freemasonry, one of two -or possibly three- free black men known to hold the higher Mormon priesthood in the 1840s, and he almost became Mormonism's first and only black polygamist. Despite his abiding faith in Mormonism and acquaintance with and influence among the highest rank of LDS leaders, racism ultimately prevailed in the LDS Church. The inter-racial marriage of his Mormon son to a white Mormon woman so infuriated Brigham Young when he learned of it at the end of 1847 that he wished to have the newlywed couple murdered, and soon thereafter Young instigated a complete priesthood ban against all men with any African ancestry at all... Pointedly, Young stumped for - and the legislature passed - [a law against interracial sexual relations] during the half-year that Elder Lewis happened to be in Utah.

Though another motivating factor was William McCary, who sounds like a real character:

As Newell G. Bringhurst has thoroughly documented, William McCary, a half-African, half-Indian Mormon musician, was in Winter Quarters, Nebraska, entertaining "the encamped Saints in February and March 1847". An accomplished ventriloquist, McCary was expelled from Winter Quarters for dressing as an Indian, claiming to be Adam "the ancient of days", and then throwing his voice to announce that "God spake unto him and called him Thomas." Before McCary departed, Brigham Young confronted him. Still not having developed the "curse of Cain" doctrine as reason to deny black men priesthood, Young told McCary, "Its nothing to do with the blood for [from] one blood has God made all flesh, we have to repent [to] regain what we av lost -we av one of the best Elders an African in Lowell." Here Young still believed that it wasn't racial identity, but individual worthiness, which merited priesthood. And he used Walker Lewis as an example of that very concept.

I'd argue, though, that Young didn't have to "develop" the Curse of Cain doctrine, since it was out there for the taking, widely discussed from a Biblical and racial viewpoint, for example, from 1835 or a general overview.

But the whole interaction between blacks and the LDS church in the Smith era and then the change in the Young era seems to show that the start of all the ugliness can pretty much be credited to Young.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I can only conclude that Janadele is ashamed to tell us what she defines a "negro" as.

 

[RandFan]

I can only conclude that Janadele is ashamed to tell us what she defines a "negro" as.

Yeah, she seems to think that her rhetoric about "god's reasons" and "for a short time" and the use of "negro" some how blunts the racist nature of the Church's stance. Let me assure her, it doesn't. And refusing to explain what a negro is and how one could be distinguished doesn't bode well for the credibility of her sources or her.

 

[Hokulele]

I'm having trouble forming more than an obscene three-letter acronym in response to post #2841. How in any way, shape or form does that post contribute to the posts preceding it? Are "Negro" people wheat? tares? lights?

Well, if it were prior to the Civil War, I would guess they would be the ones doing the harvesting...

 

[Empress]

Cat Tale tipped me off to this.

*snip for brevity*

Thanks for that, Pup. Interesting reading.

 

[Slowvehicle]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/86?lang=eng
D&C 86:
7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

11 Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this Priesthood, a saviour unto my people Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.

And this has...what...to do with explainaing how to distinguish among a "person of African descent"; a "person of negro descent"; and a person with 'black' skin"; particularly given the demonstrable fact that all humans are "of African descent", and no humans have black skin (dark brown, at most).

While you are at that, what has this to do with your opinion about when the "Eve" and "Adam" of this universe lived?

Or, what has this to do with your opinion about when the global punitive flood in this universe took place?

Further, what has this to do with the "International Internet Laws" you claim have jurisdiction here?

 

[RandFan]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

No it hasn't been answered. What did Brigham Young mean by "black skin" and a "flat nose"? What about all of the scriptures that reference "black skin", why do they do that if it has nothing to do with skin color.

This is a skeptics site not get preached to by a Mormon site. If you want to express your views without critical scrutiny then you've come to the wrong place.

You are NOT answering questions in any meaningful way.

 

[Slowvehicle]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

You have made the claim that there is a perceptible distinction to be made between a "person of African descent" (even though all humans originated in Africa); a "person of Negro descent (even though "Negro" is a false collective, an inaccurate conflation of a non-homogenous group of disparate humans joined by neither heredity nor culture); and a person with "black skin" (even though no humans have "black" skin--as has been pointed out to you, the darkest of humans are very dark brown).

You have made the assertion that a defensible LDS D&C rests upon, and is predicated by, these distinctions.

I have asked you, politely and patiently, to explain these distinctions; to demonstrate how they may be understood. Explaining and clarifying claims is not "derailing"--check out the "E" in "JREF".

I would be willing to wager that if you answer that question, directly, politely,and in your own words (instead of an inappositive and indigestible mass of copypasta), you will not run afoul of the mods.

I would also appreciate it if you would answer the other requests for clarification I have made of you.

And I would love to see your source for the "International Internet Laws" you used as a veiled threat.

Do be so kind as to answer my questions...

 

[abaddon]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

How do you identify Negroes or people of Negro descent?

How do you identify Africans or people of African descent?

How is skin colour assessed?

These are direct questions about LDS "Doctrines and Teachings" and are not off topic or a derail at all.

You are simply attempting to back away from the noxious ideas you have posted here.

ETA: Is you want an example of off topic, look at YOUR post here.

 

[Empress]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.

In justice it should be said that there have been among the seed of Cain many who have been honorable and who have lived according to the best light they had in this second estate. Let us pray that the Lord may bless them with some blessings of exaltation, if not the fullness, for their integrity here.

In the spirit of sympathy, mercy and faith, we will hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are out brethren-children of God-notwithstanding their black covering emblematic of eternal darkness.”

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp.101-102)

JF Smith was the 6th President of the Church, and that's what he had to say on the subject of the curse of black skin and not allowing the descendants of Cain to hold the Priesthood. That they are an inferior race and their skin is emblematic of eternal darkness. .

Now is that LDS doctrine, or not?

 

[RandFan]

The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.

In justice it should be said that there have been among the seed of Cain many who have been honorable and who have lived according to the best light they had in this second estate. Let us pray that the Lord may bless them with some blessings of exaltation, if not the fullness, for their integrity here.

In the spirit of sympathy, mercy and faith, we will hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are out brethren-children of God-notwithstanding their black covering emblematic of eternal darkness.”

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp.101-102)

JF Smith was the 6th President of the Church, and that's what he had to say on the subject of the curse of black skin and not allowing the descendants of Cain to hold the Priesthood. That they are an inferior race and their skin is emblematic of eternal darkness. .
Now is that LDS doctrine, or not?

Thanks Empress. There it is again, "black skin". It's said over and over in the D&C and by prophets and other Church leaders. The BofM makes mention of the dark skin of the Lamanites and how it's possible that their skin will lighten.

But don't trust Prophet Brigham Young. Don't trust Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith. Don't trust the Doctrine and Covenants. Trust Janandele.

 

[Hokulele]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

Fine. The position of the Church is a bunch of bigoted nonsense, and is one of many reasons why I am glad to be no part of it.

 

[Foster Zygote]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Yes, we know. That's why we want to know what you have to say about the racist statements made by the Book of Mormon and the founders of the church. If you want to convince us that Mormonism is the true description of the universe that we inhabit, then I'm afraid you're going to have to address these problems.

The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered.

That's not what we're asking. We're asking you to tell us what your definition of a "negro" is.

Ne*gro |ˈnēgrō|
noun ( pl. -groes) dated often offensive
a member of a dark-skinned group of peoples originally native to Africa south of the Sahara.

Is that what you mean when you say that negros come from Africa, but not all Africans are negros? Does "negro" only refer to Africans from sub-Saharan cultures, Africans who typically have darker skin pigmentation?

De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

How can it be off-topic? You yourself just reiterated that "the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". What we are asking you about comes straight from the Book of Mormon and the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young regarding the practices of the church they founded. You can't say, "Let's talk about what the Book of Mormon says" and then protest when someone asks why it says racist things.


Again, what is your definition of a "negro"?

 

[Cat Tale]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

I don't see that the thread's being derailed. And personally, I'd rather all discussion about the Church stay on this thread, easier to follow. I don't see how discussing Declaration 2 (priesthood to all worthy male members regardless of race or color) is off topic. A prophet said it in an official capacity so there's no doubt that this is on topic.

Edited to add that yes I'm LDS and there are some things in my church's past that I find totally disgusting, but they are also things that the church no longer teaches. See how easy it is to answer questions?

 

[bruto]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

I think most people want an explanation, not just an answer. If you're going to stop an simply answering, at least make it complete and comprehensible. You have not yet clarified whether either you or the Mormon founders have or had a consistent or tenable idea of what was and was not being addressed: race, color, descent, what percentages, how determined, and so forth.

 

[Cat Tale]

The personal opinions of ex members, or of current members, is not the topic of this thread.

So you're saying that I can't say that I find many things in our Church's past totally disgusting? That's my most recent personal opinion. Should I sit back and pretend like racism was okay, or it never happened, what should I be doing?

 

[smartcooky]

Actually, whenever I hear the term "LDS" mentioned, the first thing I think of is this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc

 

[desertgal]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The position of the Church regarding the holding of the Priesthood by worthy males of Negro descent has already been answered. De railing of threads is against forum rules... start another thread if you wish to discuss off topic matters.

The topic of this thread is "LDS". The LDS church is being discussed. The thread is on topic.

You are not a moderator. It's not your privilege to direct other members about what and where to post.

<snip>Edited to add that yes I'm LDS and there are some things in my church's past that I find totally disgusting, but they are also things that the church no longer teaches. See how easy it is to answer questions?

Cat Tale, I applaud you. Your responses have been fair and candid. Definitely an enlightment.

The personal opinions of ex members, or of current members, is not the topic of this thread.

Why not? The topic is "LDS", and this is a discussion forum. Everyone here is entitled to state their opinion, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

You are not a moderator. It's not your privilege to direct other members about what and where to post.

 

[Foster Zygote]

So you're saying that I can't say that I find many things in our Church's past totally disgusting? That's my most recent personal opinion. Should I sit back and pretend like racism was okay, or it never happened, what should I be doing?

It strikes me as little different from telling another Catholic that he or she can't be disgusted by members of the clergy who rape children, or aid those who do in covering it up.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Still curious as everyone to know what Janadele thinks a negro is.