LDS

[Pixel42]

There is no truth in such allegations against Joseph Smith.

There is plenty of evidence for these allegations.

Those who do not want to wade in error should seek the truth from LDS official sites and Scriptures.

There is no evidence for the claims made by these sources, and ample evidence proving that many of them are false.

We're sceptics. We know that the way to avoid "wading in error" is to follow the evidence.

 

[DragonLady]

jsfisher: There is no truth in such allegations against Joseph Smith. This is what comes from anti-Mormon propaganda.

Those who do not want to wade in error should seek the truth from LDS official sites and Scriptures.

sigh

I tried.

 

[SezMe]

That's an interesting take on it. I always figured that it would be best to have an honest president (yeah, I know), whose words matched his actions....

Not entirely honest. The ability to bluff is valuable in politics, foreign affairs and poker.

 

[Janadele]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

 

[Mashuna]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

Evidence has been provided in this thread. You have failed to engage with any of it, instead choosing to preach and issue unsubstantiated denials.

 

[Pixel42]

What evidence?

You have been shown evidence, and there is plenty more where it came from. The fact that you prefer to dismiss it out of hand as "anti Mormon propaganda" instead of examining it objectively is your problem, not mine. You're the one who continues to "wade in error" as a result.

 

[SezMe]

I have an overwhelming urge to place DOC and Janadele in the same thread to see what would happen.

A melted internet would not be a pretty sight.

 

[pakeha]

Bingo. If you are interested there is a really good video that goes into it in more detail.

The Lost Book of Abraham

Thanks for the link. I'll watch it after work.

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

Hi, Janadele.
Why is claiming the word Egypt doesn't derive from the Chaldean language, but rather from Greek an example of twisted hate and lies?
"The English name Egypt is derived from the ancient Greek Aígyptos (Αἴγυπτος), via Middle French Egypte and Latin Aegyptus. It is reflected in early Greek Linear B tablets as a-ku-pi-ti-yo."
From Wiki.

This is an example of a clear inaccuracy in the text of the Book of Abraham.
Why deny it?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

All things are possible with the Lord.

It might be worth noting that this doesn't necessarily mean that all things are equally likely.

Janadele, on the matter of contradictions between reality and the Book of Mormon, I understand that it is your absolute and final position that the Book is true, but that doesn't really address my question.

My question, if I might rephrase it more succinctly, is: is it your view that the contradictions are best explained by a) reality being false or b) the Book only being 'true' in a poetic rather than literal sense? If you have an option c) then by all means let's have it.

 

[Pup]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

For example, the papyrus. As I understand it, the church agrees the surviving scrap is one that Joseph Smith had, and that it's from the Egyptian Book of Breathings, and that he approved the drawing in the LDS Book of Abraham which filled in the torn places. That's based mainly on your post 780. Correct?

If it's from the Book of Breathings, the standing figure should have a jackal's head.

Joseph Smith filled in the figure with a human head.

The jackal's head (and the missing flying bird) are not based on anti-Mormon literature; they're based on the results of the work of numerous Egyptologists, which the church is agreeing with by identifying the scrap as being from the Book of Breathings.

Otherwise, if they stuck by Smith's drawing, they'd say it can't be from the Book of Breathings because the figure doesn't have a jackal's head, among other things.

I think this is an excellent example of how the church uses common sense, and how the members could too. When Egyptology was in its infancy, the church could get away with claiming the papyrus was from the Book of Abraham. As more information was brought to light by scientists studying Egyptology, the church realized that claim was no longer possible. They could have remained steadfast that Smith got the translation right and every other person got it wrong, but they didn't.

So they agreed that the scrap was from the Book of Breathings, and retreated to the claim that the Book of Abraham is still translated correctly from the missing portions.

Even the church, moving at an incredibly glacial pace, is following the scientific method.

1) A hypothesis is presented: this is a correct translation of a papyrus.

2) Evidence comes forth to contradict it--real evidence which the church accepts, rather than rejecting as "twisted hate and lies from the enemies."

3) The church acknowledges the evidence, rejects that hypothesis and proposes a new one instead.

Rather than seeking the truth, the church is seeking to find a hypothesis that can't be disproven, but that's another issue.

Still, it shows that even the church has common sense and is willing to officially acknowledge mistakes at the stage in this cartoon of "I have such overwhelming proof it's becoming a P.R. problem for you." (I love that cartoon.)

 

[jsfisher]

jsfisher: There is no truth in such allegations against Joseph Smith. This is what comes from anti-Mormon propaganda.

Those who do not want to wade in error should seek the truth from LDS official sites and Scriptures.

If you have some evidence to support your counter-claims, we'd all be delighted to consider it. You have offered very little to go on so far, only the mindless repetition of stock LDS dogma, complete with the same typographic errors faithfully reproduced.

Think about that last part: You have been on a copy-and-paste campaign without even bothering to read what you paste. Had you, you would have spotted the textual defects immediately...as would have the person you copied from...as would the person he or she had copied from....as would...and so on.

In there own way, your posts are far more anti-Mormon than anything I've posted.


The Prisoner, Episode 6: "The General" -- very topical.

 

[Slowvehicle]

jsfisher: There is no truth in such allegations against Joseph Smith. This is what comes from anti-Mormon propaganda.

Those who do not want to wade in error should seek the truth from LDS official sites and Scriptures.

I know that you have stopped listening, and it appears that you never intended to provide substantiation for your arguments, so I am probably wasting my time, but do you not see the inherent, inescapable circularity of your argument?

"It's true because it's true; and if you believe it, you will come to see that it is true..."

Which is a shame. I hoped for substance.

 

[Slowvehicle]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

I will accept an apology for you referring to my polite-but-insistent, evidence-based, real-world questions as "twisted hate and lies".

Please read Jack's post #925...

 

[Pixel42]

When I was a Christian, I was taught that Mormonism was a satanic cult that worshipped the Devil in the secrecy of its temples while professing to worship God outside them. You should never allow Mormon missionaries into your house, and you should never let them bless your house, because a Mormon blessing was a curse.

I was thinking more of the Christians who believe that the LDS was inspired by Lucifer to trick good people into committing blasphemies like believing they could eventually become gods themselves.

 

[bruto]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

I know it's fruitless at this point, but denying the existence of evidence is not the same as denying its validity.

 

[asydhouse]

Janadelle, never mind all this paperwork.

Consider this: Mormon missionaries told me that if I prayed sincerely I would definitely receive an answer from God to tell me that the Mormon Church was the true church.

I was 15, my father had already decided he had received "a feeling" and he Knew this was the true church. Mum went along with him, easily happy to "know".... but I never even got a hint.

I was ready to hear from God, I've never been so sincere as I was in my prayers, performed as taught by the missionaries.

Eventually, my Dad read me some passages from a Mormon "archaeology" book, and not knowing skeptical thinking, I accepted that as a true authority, as science! So I joined with my parents (as an only child, I didn't want to deprive ,my mother of her only son).

I suffered two years of feeling awkward when people at church stood up to give their "testimony" that they knew the church was the true church... one time I was the only one out of a dozen or so (small congregation) who hadn't stood up. Everyone looked at me with simmering resentment that I was preventing a 100% testimonial meeting. But even though I continued to pray sincerely for a direct answer, as the missionaries had promised, I never did get an answer.

In the end, over another couple of years, I slowly stopped attending, and eventually extracted myself. Just to be sure, as a final gesture towards the kind and loving god that had never reached out to solve my quandary for me, I prayed and informed God that I was leaving the church... unless he would now tell me to stay. I said, if I don't hear from you, I guess I have to take that as a sign that you are not there.

I said my amen etc, as good mormon prayer form requires.... and went easily on my way, untroubled by the Lord.

I reckon I gave your god and your church a totally real and sincere chance with me... and he ignored me.

How do you explain that?

 

[Craig4]

Truth is not changed nor denigrated because there are those who refuse to accept or recognise it.

Truth stands as a beacon despite assault from the powers of darkness.

Since barley was not cultivated in the Americans prior to Columbus how can your books be true?

 

[Craig4]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

The big bit of evidence is that the technology and husbandry did not exist in the Americas prior to Columbus. There was no cultivated barley in the New World. Given this how can your books be anything other than lies?

 

[Marcus]

This thread reminds me of the Scientology threads. Both groups have become very good at compartmentalization, separating the absurdities involved in the founding of the religion from it's practice in their everyday lives.

Scientologists really don't want to talk about Xenu, Mormons would rather ignore all the errors found in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Shalamar]

What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.

Do you believe everything You're told without question then? Because that is what you are doing here.