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Janadele said:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham".
New Era, January 1968.
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The above post clearly states that The Book of Breathings, the Papyri you refer to, was not the Papyri from which Joseph translated the Book of Abraham.
RandFan said:
[*]The Mormon Church admits that at least part of the Papyri was indeed the funerary text (Book of Breathing).
[*]The purpose of the text was to assist the deceased in the next life.
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Janadele said:
The above post clearly states that The Book of Breathings, the Papyri you refer to, was not the Papyri from which Joseph translated the Book of Abraham.
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Your claims are just ad hoc explanations.

  • Why would Egyptians put an Account of Abraham that puts Egyptian belief in a bad light in a burial tomb?
  • Isn't it convenient that this one text disappeared?
  • Why is it that no other copy of the Book of Abraham exists?
  • If Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet has been shown false and the facsimile shown to be false, why assume that his translation of a now lost text be assumed a correct translation?
 
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For those following along at home:

Please to compare Facsimile 1 from the Book of Abraham with the original papyri.

Note that the papyri is missing parts (it has been torn).

Now, compare Facsimile 1 with the same illustration from a different copy of the Book of Breathing.

Joseph Smith got everything wrong on the Facsimile. EVERYTHING. If this facsimile was from the Book of Breathing and not the alleged lost text, why was it included with the Boof of Abraham?
 
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Okay, let's try it from this angle

Janadele, as you can see, numbers of people criticise the LDS and its founding texts.

Have you ever considered that maybe they genuinely see things to criticise?

Oliver Cromwell said to his opponents, "In the bowels of Christ, give thought that you might be wrong."

Emphasis added, because I grow dispirited as this futile thread lengthens and lengthens.
 
Truth is not changed nor denigrated because there are those who refuse to accept or recognise it.

Truth stands as a beacon despite assault from the powers of darkness. :)

sackett said:
Janadele, as you can see, numbers of people criticise the LDS and its founding texts.
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Janadele said:
Truth is not changed nor denigrated because there are those who refuse to accept or recognise it.

Truth stands as a beacon despite assault from the powers of darkness. :)
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Powers of darkness? Have you been reading Harry Potter books?
 
Janadele said:
Truth is not changed nor denigrated because there are those who refuse to accept or recognise it.

Truth stands as a beacon despite assault from the powers of darkness. :)
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I'm only a power of darkness when I'm Darth Vader. I still can't force choke people at a distance though.
 
Vic Vega said:
She is obviously defending her faith, however, she isn't interested in meaningful dialog but seems content to look foolish and post nothing but platitudes.
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It seems to me that borders on a personal attack (rather than a challenge to an argument). The same can be said for the following:

"[Janadele posts] utter nonsense" (Post 703). And there is still more: "She looks like a complete fool" (Post 711).

Such statements fall into the ad hominem category, and, in my judgment, are inappropriate on this forum.
 
Janadele said:
Truth is not changed nor denigrated because there are those who refuse to accept or recognise it.
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Here's something some of us might be able to come close to agreeing on!

Truth: the Book of Mormon contains factual errors.
Truth: Joseph Smith was a known con artist.
Moroni 10:3–5.
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in you hearts.
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Except unto Abel. And Job. And the peoples killed in the flood. And the slaughter of the innocents. And the....

(is that enough pondering?)


4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
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Do you not see that when something is true, it can be verfied and proven?

"We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10:3–5.)
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A testimony? Do you know how innacurate and full of holes most testimony is? Ask any cop or any lawyer. Fifty people witness and event, and recount it fifty different ways. And a week later it's seventy different ways.

Why didn't -or couldn't- the eternal God have provided a few crumbs of actual fact?
 
RandFan said:
Please to compare Facsimile 1 from the Book of Abraham with the original papyri.

Note that the papyri is missing parts (it has been torn).

Now, compare Facsimile 1 with the same illustration from a different copy of the Book of Breathing.

Joseph Smith got everything wrong on the Facsimile. EVERYTHING. If this facsimile was from the Book of Breathing and not the alleged lost text, why was it included with the Boof of Abraham?
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That's pretty interesting. I hadn't looked at all three like that before. If I'm understanding correctly, the photo of the original papyrus is what Joseph Smith used to extrapolate the drawing? So he assumed the tip of the bird's wing was actually the man's other hand. And missed the fact that the standing figure should have a jackal's head.
 
Janadele said:
The Book of Mormon is Scripture and LDS Doctrine... and therefore true. All things are possible with the Lord.
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Thanks for the reply, but can you explain what you mean by it?

Do you mean (as I suspect) that you recognise that there are contradictions between observed reality and what's written in the Book of Mormon, but you believe there must be some logic-defying holy consolidation which allows the book to remain 'true' in some special way?

Or do you mean logic and reality must be wrong, and Lucifer's almost certainly behind it?


PS It appears to me that what you are doing here is playing a kind of theological tennis; people raise their concerns and you try to bat them away using only the official LDS-prescribed stroke. May I ask why you're doing so? Are you testing your faith? Have you invited fellow believers to watch you try? It certainly seems to me you are making no attempt at all to convince any non-believer of the credibility of your faith.


PPS As others before have requested, please, when responding to a post using the 'Quote' function, write your response after the text you are responding to. It would make your posts easier to read. You will notice that everyone else participating in the thread is managing to do this with no difficulty. Your adoption of this point of forum ettiquette would be appreciated.
 
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sackett said:
Hey, I thought you were a monotheist. Where did this other deity come from?
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Lucifer (aka Satan) isn't a deity. He's an angel who succumbed to the sin of pride. Never anywhere near being a deity.

Pixel42 said:
That, of course, is what many Christians believe about Mormons.
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When I was a Christian, I was taught that Mormonism was a satanic cult that worshipped the Devil in the secrecy of its temples while professing to worship God outside them. You should never allow Mormon missionaries into your house, and you should never let them bless your house, because a Mormon blessing was a curse.

I was also taught that the band Queen was a satanic cult that performed blood rituals inside pentagrams. This was attested to by people who had come out of the band, and was proven by the line in Bohemian Rhapsody "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me..."

I was taught these things as absolute, irrefutable truths.

Homework for Janadele is to explain why these truths are ridiculous, and the truths of the Mormon church are not.
 
Pup said:
That's pretty interesting. I hadn't looked at all three like that before. If I'm understanding correctly, the photo of the original papyrus is what Joseph Smith used to extrapolate the drawing? So he assumed the tip of the bird's wing was actually the man's other hand. And missed the fact that the standing figure should have a jackal's head.
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Bingo. If you are interested there is a really good video that goes into it in more detail.

The Lost Book of Abraham
 
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