LDS II: The Mormons

[Travis]

You have no idea how ironic I find it that the LDS do not even use Joseph Smith's Inspired Version of the Bible because they don't trust it. There are multiple and conflicting versions of the Book of Mormon and the D&C, not to mention Mormon history itself.

And to think, this legacy of scriptural chaos all in less than 200 years.

That's to be expected. The first couple of centuries of any new religious text is usually fraught with controversy. Check out the fighting that went on about what books to include or exclude in the bible. Those fights went on for centuries and centuries.

Why we think this wouldn't happen with the Book Of Mormon is beyond me.

Psssst. Newsflash. Actual Christians consider the book of Mormon to be pagan garbage. Same with all the nonsense in your "pearl of great price."

Your comment seems to imply that you think those documents are somehow considered scripture by both Christians and Mormons. They're not. Only Mormons consider those documents holy. I know Christians who deliberately included the book of Mormon and the pearl of great price in the bathroom with the Koran to use as toilet paper. Having read the book of Mormon and the pearl of great price I can't really say they were making a mistake.

I think it is a great waste to use any book, let alone theological texts, for such a purpose. Personally I keep a copy of the Quran I got back in college right next to my old personal copy of the Book of Mormon, my old Bible and The God Delusion on my book shelf. Never occurred to me to go and desecrate any of them.

Maybe I'm odd.

According to every denomination I've ever studied or church I've attended, that is a blasphemous lie. You are NOT a Christian. You are a pagan whose pantheon includes a Jesus-like figure and a bastardized version of the King James Bible. You are no more a Christian than practitioners of Islam.

Um, no. I think you have fairly unclear idea of what a Christian is and isn't.

Lying about being a Christian will not sway anyone with so much as a remedial comprehension of the dogma of both religions.

Interesting. I've been both a Baptist and Mormon. I came away thinking they were both "Christian." Does that make me a liar too?

You can babble all you want about your faith, but do NOT tell me a lie as obvious and shoddy as claiming to be a Christian. You are not. You are a pagan.

I'm curious as to what definition you are using to describe Mormons as "pagans" and not, say, Methodists?

IMO, that's a rather awkward and contradictory position. If LDS claims to be the "true" church, does that not imply that it considers other churches to be not true?

I shopped around for churches back in my youth. I found that they all claim to be "the one true church" even if they never explicitly use those words.

Notice you never see a "Second Church Of Christ" anywhere.

 

[Loss Leader]

That's to be expected. The first couple of centuries of any new religious text is usually fraught with controversy. Check out the fighting that went on about what books to include or exclude in the bible. Those fights went on for centuries and centuries.

At least those people had the "benefit" of having no systematic method of recording, viewing and interpreting history. History as a discipline, born long after the Old Testament was canonized, basically consisted of writing down what Greek historians had heard happened in non-literary form.

Mormons don't get this excuse. It was easy to understand history when the BoM was written and has become trivially easy since then (at least in broad strokes). Oral histories told as literary stories to make them more memorable weren't required when the BoM was written and aren't required now.

But your comments on the religion's newness are interesting. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Mormon sect in 1,000 years.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Despite misunderstandings and some false doctrines, the core belief and message of Christianity and the words of the Lord which are taught are Christian.

Are you referring to the words where Jesus, said to be said you be "the christ", is said to have specifically repudiated the idea of marriage after the resurrection? Are you caliming that is is a "misunderstanding" when your mob just change things around as it suits them, even with words that the rest of christendom attributes to "the christ"?

 

[kerikiwi]

Eternal Law, written in the beginning of time... previous to our mortal existence, has been given to mortality since the time the Spiritual bodies of our progenitors Adam and Eve received their mortal bodies... and the veil of forgetfulness, to prevent the conscious remembrance of previous great knowledge.
So began the trial of mortality.
The Gospel According to St John:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng
3. And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
4. And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.
33. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
39. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
41. And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.
Chapter 4
1. And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honour.
2. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
"The four records or testimonies of Jesus’ mortal life and the events pertaining to His ministry are contained in the first four books of the New Testament. Written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, these are recorded witnesses of Christs' mortal life. The book of 3 Nephi in the Book of Mormon is similar in many ways to these four New Testament Gospels. The Greek word for gospel means “good news.” The good news is that Jesus Christ has made an atonement that will redeem all mankind from death, and reward each individual according to his works.
( John 3:16; Rom. 5:10–11; 2 Ne. 9:26; Alma 34:9; D&C 76:69 )."
“Hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, … and they teach all men that they should do good.
And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are His words, at the last day.” 2 Nephi 33:10–11;
Christian Scriptures include:
The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly.
The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

Can you summarise this in a sentence or two of your own?

 

[Cat Tale]

That is of course supposition, and is a survey yet to be done.

The following two surveys show my personal experience with non-LDS members and whether or not they believe the LDS Church is Christian. These were both taken during Romney's failed bid at the White House, when the LDS Church was thrust into the spotlight like it or not.

The first one is Pew Research which showed: 51% of non-members considered the Church to be Christian, while 17% are uncertain, and 32% say no.

yougov's poll among registered voters found the answer dead even 50%-50%.

I think the LDS Church is more accepted in society today than it was back when I first joined it 30 some years ago. That's just personal experience, I have no actual data to prove it. So take it for what it's worth.

 

[I Ratant]

For who is a Christian...
"Just going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car." G.K. Chesterton. "
And I remember from way back when..
'Who is a Jew?"
"Anyone who says he is".
.
Both questions have no concrete answers, as lip service overwhelms the actual personal practice of either.. or any...

 

[arthwollipot]

Um, no. I think you have fairly unclear idea of what a Christian is and isn't.

The church I attended considered Mormons to be Satanists. I was specifically told to never let Mormons bless my house, because a Mormon blessing is a curse.

 

[bruto]

Notice you never see a "Second Church Of Christ" anywhere.

Actually, every once in a blue moon you do in New England, or close. Schisms and mitoses were so common among congregations that such things did indeed. occur. Cornwall, Connecticut's Congregational church split apart in the 18th century, although I think they were officially First and Second Congregational. If you look around, you may also find some other Second Churches, maintaining some pride in their schismatic origins.

Oh, and looking it up, though I realize it's not really relevant except as an oddity, it appears that all Christian Science churches after the original First in Boston are "Second Church of Christ, Scientist." The mother church is the only "first."

 

[Tassman]

That is of course supposition, and is a survey yet to be done.

No one Christian, nor denomination, has the right to tell another who professes to be Christian that they are not. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whilst claiming her rightful status as the true Church of Christ, does not deny that others who claim to be so are Christian and their Churches Christian Churches.

Correct. They don’t. And neither do you and yet this is what you are implying when you assert “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…as the true Church of Christ”. Many other denominations have a much stronger claim than your church to this status.

 

[jsfisher]

That's to be expected. The first couple of centuries of any new religious text is usually fraught with controversy. Check out the fighting that went on about what books to include or exclude in the bible. Those fights went on for centuries and centuries.

Why we think this wouldn't happen with the Book Of Mormon is beyond me.

The Book of Mormon isn't like other books of the Bible, though. The Bible is a collection of miscellania, translated, retranslated, mistranslated then eventually tossed together. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is alleged to be the most perfect text, the direct word of God.

Whereas it may have taken time to gather, translate, and approve the exact right collection of miscellania for the official edition of the Bible, the Book of Mormon started out as the self-proclaimed, God-sent text.

I would not have expected this most perfect text to have undergone so many edits.

 

[I Ratant]

Actually, every once in a blue moon you do in New England, or close. Schisms and mitoses were so common among congregations that such things did indeed. occur. Cornwall, Connecticut's Congregational church split apart in the 18th century, although I think they were officially First and Second Congregational. If you look around, you may also find some other Second Churches, maintaining some pride in their schismatic origins.

Oh, and looking it up, though I realize it's not really relevant except as an oddity, it appears that all Christian Science churches after the original First in Boston are "Second Church of Christ, Scientist." The mother church is the only "first."

.
I'd read it is difficult to find a 3-day old religion without a 2-day old heresy.

 

[I Ratant]

...

Whereas it may have taken time to gather, translate, and approve the exact right collection of miscellania for the official edition of the Bible, the Book of Mormon started out as the self-proclaimed, God-sent text.

...

.
ALL of them are! The odd part is that god's words are culturally defined.
What's OK in one place is anathema in another.
One would hope THE message was the same for everyone.
The many differences in what we have certainly points to the source being little more than a charismatic schizophrenic writing down the noises in -his- head.

 

[pakeha]

...On top of the ridiculous notion that a Jew at that time and place would have been writing in Egyptian we have the obvious fact of the Book of Abraham proving beyond any possible doubt that Joe the fiddler couldn't understand a single word of the language.

Yes, there is the fact the BoA has nothing to do with the text Smith claimed to translate.
Awkward.

 

[halleyscomet]

Tell me more !

There are some people who use religion not for guidance, but as a means of pretending they're better than others. These individuals will often seek out excuses to be offended or deliberately antagonize people of other faiths or no faith not to bring glory to God, but to provoke a response. That negative response is seen by them as proof of their integrity, evidence of their superiority. People pursuing a martyr complex believe that being told they're a jackass is somehow equal to being stoned to death by heathens.

 

[bruto]

.
I'd read it is difficult to find a 3-day old religion without a 2-day old heresy.

That is especially true around here (Western Vermont), where it seems a whole lot of things took wing. Mormonism, along with a few other utopian communities, began in the Burlington Vermont area. Here in Benson is one of the first Mormon chapels, which later was also the home of a splinter congregation from the town church, or maybe earlier, or maybe both. Anyway, the Mormons did not stay long, and like everyone else headed across the frozen lake westward. Down the road is the Miller Chapel, birthplace of the Seventh Day Adventists.

Lake Champlain seems to be the ignition point for the "burnt-over district." It's a fascinating bit of peripheral history.

Speaking of history and secularism and Mormons, back on topic for the moment, I just heard a news item that the Mormon Church itself (not the individual believers) has entered into the legislative argument in Utah over reforming the liquor laws. Looking forward to the apologetics on that one.

 

[Janadele]

Can you summarise this in a sentence or two of your own?

Eternal Law, written in the beginning of time... previous to our mortal existence, has been given to mortality since the time the Spiritual bodies of our progenitors Adam and Eve received their mortal bodies... and the veil of forgetfulness, to prevent the conscious remembrance of previous great knowledge.
So began the trial of mortality...
Christian Scriptures include:
The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly.
The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

 

[Janadele]

.. I agree with what is posted above, but you've changed it to make it more clear...

No, there was no change, the original post was perfectly clear.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Eternal Law, written in the beginning of time... previous to our mortal existence, has been given to mortality since the time the Spiritual bodies of our progenitors Adam and Eve received their mortal bodies... and the veil of forgetfulness, to prevent the conscious remembrance of previous great knowledge.
So began the trial of mortality...

And not a fig, not a ficton, of evidence for this superstition, pother than this superstition.

Christian Scriptures include: The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly. The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

And two fingers up to all the christians (and xianists) who disagree with you, eh?

 

[I Ratant]

Eternal Law, written in the beginning of time... previous to our mortal existence, has been given to mortality since the time the Spiritual bodies of our progenitors Adam and Eve received their mortal bodies... and the veil of forgetfulness, to prevent the conscious remembrance of previous great knowledge.
So began the trial of mortality...
Christian Scriptures include:
The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly.
The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

.
And THAT, ladies and germs, is THE crux of the situation. Who decides the "correctly"?
The Anglicans?
The Baptists?
The Covenantors?
The D..
The E..
The F..
The G..
ad infinitum!

 

[Tassman]

Eternal Law, written in the beginning of time... previous to our mortal existence, has been given to mortality since the time the Spiritual bodies of our progenitors Adam and Eve received their mortal bodies... and the veil of forgetfulness, to prevent the conscious remembrance of previous great knowledge.So began the trial of mortality...
Christian Scriptures include:
The Old and New Testaments of The Holy Bible... as far as translated correctly.
The Book of Mormon. The Pearl of Great Price. The Doctrine and Covenants.

The problem with all of this stuff, Janadele, is that apart from claimed divine revelation there is not a shred of evidence to support these extraordinary assertions.