LDS II: The Mormons

[Pup]

When I coached debate, I would discuss the reality that "TRVTH" is only one of the weapons of debate--and not even the strongest one. Pirie identifies logical fallacies in order to explain how to get away with using them.

"Winning" a "debate" does not affect reality in any way.

Bingo.

And to make this post long enough... For Skyrider or anyone, is there really any doubt the BoM was supposed to have been written in Reformed Egyptian, according to Smith and all the internal evidence and even the examples of the language shown to Prof. Anthon and published in the Times and Seasons? I thought that was indisputable, and the only question would be how many Hebrew idioms would survive through the two languages into English.

 

[halleyscomet]

You seem to be wedded to the notion that the only reality that exists is that which can be perceived through the senses. Thus it appears you think that everything that "is" is knowable through human faculties. Such are the constraints of your paradigm.

Naturally. One cannot discount the wisdom to be learned from calling the witch doctor.



Or meditating over crystals.



Or divine revelation.



(I picked that last one because I think Janadelle would be tickled pink if you passed it along to her. I think Manning is a hateful, evil bigot, but I think he might actually be racist enough for Janadelle to consider him the first black person she'd willingly hang out with.)

 

[halleyscomet]

You say "even one example would contradict such a statement." In other words, you believe that if someone suffered negative consequences because of a Church policy, the Church wanted that to happen with malice aforethought. Horsefeathers! Also there's the matter of what you mean by "negative consequences." Some people are waiting to be wounded.

I have to keep reminding myself that you don't see homosexuals as sufficiency human to qualify as being harmed by a malevolent LDS policy, such are their contribution to getting Prop 8 passed. Your hateful thought processes are still very foreign to my mind.

Brigham Young, who implemented the Church's ban on ordaining blacks to the priesthood, got it wrong. There is, in my mind, no doubt about that.

He got it wrong CULTURALLY and ETHICALLY but the policy was THEOLOGICALLY consistent with the BoM and BoA.

You find it convenient to ignore the fact that you and others tend to link "intentional"/"unintentional" to the claim that the Church actively sought to hurt certain individuals.

What else do you call helping pass legislation to prevent consenting adults from marrying each other?

 

[halleyscomet]

Nothing you have written changes my point; i.e., divine inspiration has been operative in the creation of some of the world's greatest inventions and works of art. How do we know that? The men and women who created said inventions and art have, themselves, stated they were divinely inspired. You are free, obviously, to disbelieve them, in which case you suppose you know more about how they accomplished what they did than they do.

What constitutes "divine inspiration" in this context?

Is being moved by the strength of one's faith really "divine inspiration" any more than being moved by the beauty of a waterfall or the vividness of a dream? You gleefully ignore the fact that vague references of "divine Inspiration" don't really constitute evidence for the divine, merely the strength of the claimant's imagination and the power of culturally dominant themes of religion. The Aztecs were "divinely Inspired" to make human sacrifices to their gods. Using your logic, this would mean God actually DID inspire them.

There have been a number of murders and serial killers who claimed a divine inspiration or motive behind their actions. Would you consider Charles Manson to be divinely inspired just because he thinks he is?

I find your use of vague references to "Divine Inspiration" as evidence of the supernatural to be perplexing in a monotheist, as your argument just as equally supports Islam, Hinduism and every other religion on the planet, as well as a number of clearly insane people who need to be on medication.

" . . . the amazing way it makes them feel" doesn't explain the amazing way it makes tens of millions of admirers and critics feel, generation after generation. Do all of them have "something in the human brain . . . ?"

Then every person who is moved by the words of the Koran is, in your mind, proof that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet.

The beauty of Indian temples are proof of the Hindu pantheon.

The Native American Totem Poles are evidence their religion being real.

In the world your "logic" describes, "American Gods" is a holy book, as it better reflects your statements about the evidence for the supernatural than the Book of Mormon.

 

[tsig]

So even the Mormons scholars admit the claims of "Reformed Egyptian" are a flat out lie, inconsistent with the claimed history of the Book of Mormon.

The BoM was either fabricated in imitation of the KJV, or was originally written in Hebrew.

I'm surprised you posted evidence that attacks the claims of the mystical "Reformed Egyptian."

I'm sure the source of the BoM was Joe Smith Jr., he had already enthralled his family by concocting stories of the ancient life in America as "real as if he had been there" according to his mother so why should it be any surprise that he did so later on?

Given that Joe was dictating from visions seen in a hat the original language is meaningless. It could have been Swahili for all the difference it made.

 

[Giordano]

When I coached debate, I would discuss the reality that "TRVTH" is only one of the weapons of debate--and not even the strongest one. Pirie identifies logical fallacies in order to explain how to get away with using them.

"Winning" a "debate" does not affect reality in any way.

One of the posters in another thread maintained that "truth" about physics could be determined by a poll. Of scientists. I presume a 95% chosen option is more real than would be a 51% choice (would the latter flicker in and out of existence with a 51% cycle?). Think of all the time in my research career that I could have saved if I knew about this earlier...

Of course, polling people as to the correct god and religion is likely to lead to less than a unanimous result.

 

[Pup]

I'm sure the source of the BoM was Joe Smith Jr., he had already enthralled his family by concocting stories of the ancient life in America as "real as if he had been there" according to his mother so why should it be any surprise that he did so later on?

Given that Joe was dictating from visions seen in a hat the original language is meaningless. It could have been Swahili for all the difference it made.

That's my understanding of how it occurred in reality, and from a psychological perspective it makes sense that once he was used to dictating made-up stories in a sort of trance-like state, all he needed to do was find some way of consistently inducing that state, and the darkness of a hat would work well.

But the LDS emphasis seems to be on the plates being real engraved plates engraved with the "real" language of Reformed Egyptian, real enough that a sample could be written out and shown to a professor of ancient languages to try to translate. Has that changed? Isn't the canonical answer of Reformed Egyptian still the "right" one?

 

[Giordano]

That's my understanding of how it occurred in reality, and from a psychological perspective it makes sense that once he was used to dictating made-up stories in a sort of trance-like state, all he needed to do was find some way of consistently inducing that state, and the darkness of a hat would work well.

But the LDS emphasis seems to be on the plates being real engraved plates engraved with the "real" language of Reformed Egyptian, real enough that a sample could be written out and shown to a professor of ancient languages to try to translate. Has that changed? Isn't the canonical answer of Reformed Egyptian still the "right" one?

I still am a bit confused: I've read that JS "translated" the BofM from the gold plates, using a hat, and I've also read that he dictated the BofM using a hat, but didn't use the plates. Does anyone know the "real" story? If JS did not read from the plates in the hat, what role did the gold plates serve? Aren't they supposed to contain the narration that became the BofM?

 

[Craig4]

So why could JS not translate without the seeing stones when he had the plates, but could translate without the stones for the BoA?

 

[Pup]

I still am a bit confused: I've read that JS "translated" the BofM from the gold plates, using a hat, and I've also read that he dictated the BofM using a hat, but didn't use the plates. Does anyone know the "real" story? If JS did not read from the plates in the hat, what role did the gold plates serve? Aren't they supposed to contain the narration that became the BofM?

Here's my best shot at an answer, as an outsider, but hopefully Skyrider44 can chime in.

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From the Book of Mormon itself, Mormon 9:32-34 at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.32?lang=eng

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

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Then there's also the Joseph Smith history, which I understand is considered a source of truth, though not inspired canon.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.64?lang=eng#63

62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.

63 Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as follows:

64 “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct...

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Thirdly, I called over and asked the token Mormon who happens to be sitting in the other room, "What language was the Book of Mormon originally written in?" and she answered without hesitation: "Reformed Egyptian."

So that's what I know. Edited to add: The link to the Joseph Smith History above might be useful, because it's a basic outline of the translation story in Smith's own words that's widely used and accepted in the church, though of course there's lots more evidence aand detail available elsewhere.

 

[JaysonR]

Urim and Thummim are seer stones, for clarity.

 

[Pup]

Urim and Thummim are seer stones, for clarity.

Yes, thanks. I should have added more about that. They're Biblical, but Smith adapted the idea for his use:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

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An LDS brief summary: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/urim-and-thummim

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More specifically, from the Joseph Smith history:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.35,42,52?lang=eng#34

35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

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Here's a link to an illustration on the church's official website of the translation being done, and this seems to be pretty typical of what an average member would imagine. Oddly, the caption mentions the Urim and Thummim, but the illustration itself does not show it: https://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2005/02/as-the-dew-from-heaven-distilling?lang=spa&clang=eng

Scroll down to the picture above this: "Revelations through the Urim and Thummim. The Urim and Thummim is an instrument prepared by God through which revelation may be received. The Prophet Joseph Smith described it as 'two transparent stones set in the rim of a [silver] bow fastened to a breast plate' (History of the Church, 4:537). Other references to it can be found in Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Rev. 2:17; D&C 3, 6, 11, 14 (revealed through the Urim and Thummim); D&C 17:1; D&C 130:8–10; Mosiah 8:13; Abr. 3:1–4; and JS—H 1:35, 62. (Painting by Del Parson.)"

 

[RandFan]

Urim and Thummim are seer stones, for clarity.

And magic wands are for casting spells.

Yes, I understand that you are simply trying to clarify but let's be honest here. We are talking about magical thinking. There is no objective evidence whatsoever that seer stones are as effective as "hocus pocus" or other enchantments.

 

[JaysonR]

Rand, I think you have my intention mixed up.
I'm helping the information, not promoting JS' common 19th c CE teasure seer mysticism.

Good presentation, Pup.
Also, keep in context that JS was a treasure seer by trade prior to using that trade to find his plates and translate them so to start a new "correct" religion.

 

[Craig4]

So are the stones in a museum in Salt Lake City or something? Or perhaps they were misplaced like the tablets. God must really like the theater of this stuff. It seems a rather odd and inefficient way to have a revelation. Even if you buy Smith being a prophet, you have to admit he had been a complete jackass up to this point in his life. You'd think a supreme being would have a better plan.

 

[JaysonR]

The context of the period is helpful, archaeology was really loose at this time (mostly privateers looking to collect for private collections to show for fees, or to sell to such endeavors) until the turn of the century and the "wild" America was flooded with treasure hunting and mysticism was very much in fashion, as well as Egyptian...well...anything.
Museums, as a concept, just got started and folks were hired almost at whim of reputation not by credentials (museums were competing with privateers...it was a race of sorts since laws did not yet exist outlying ownership of artifacts or conduct).
"Seers" were not uncommon.
This is the age we are still trying to clean up from in regards to damage done to Native American sites...tons of finds were just ran over or effectively raped...sometimes artifacts were vandalized to make forgeries...Museums around the nation have lots of bogus finds in storage from this era.

 

[Craig4]

Yeah, sometimes my sarcasm doesn't translate to the Internet. I'm getting an Hons BSC in Archeology right now and have some experience with pre Pitt Rivers "excavations" in the Americas.

If an artifact doesn't have a description of where it was found, by whom and when, it's either from a nighthawk or a fake/forgery generally speaking.

 

[JaysonR]

Craig; that has to be an awesome experience!

 

[Pup]

I think in this case it didn't even rise to the level of archaelogy or artefact. Anthon, after asking where the characters on the paper came from, was told they were (basically) something a religious nutter had made up, and he asked for the certificate back, realizing his ego had overstepped its bounds and he didn't really recognize the characters, like an authority should who was talking to these country bumpkins and their accidental discovery of some old document.

It's kinda funny, the way it's described in the JS History. He tried to extricate himself from the mess as soon as possible, but it was too late. He'd been fooled, and they used his initial certificate as "proof" ever since. It's now become basic canon in the church history.

Also, keep in context that JS was a treasure seer by trade prior to using that trade to find his plates and translate them so to start a new "correct" religion.

But did he actually produce any treasures? It's my understanding he bought into the whole buried treasure fantasy going on in the area and that he tried to insert himself into the mystical side of it all, but he wasn't producing any artifacts or anything useful to sell, and was more on the fringes hiring himself out either for physical labor or a bit of mystical stuff, without much, if any, real financial gain. So it's not like he was bringing up a string of religious artifacts and selling them.

Again, my memory is old and rusty on this--do you have anything on whether or how much he was making on this or what he was producing artifact-wise for money?

But after the Anthon incident, it's all religious, with the angel taking stuff back (as I recall--need to recheck) until Mormonism and dime museums intersect again with the Pearl of Great Price, when what goes around comes around and Smith gets pressured the same way, forced to "translate" the museum owner's papyrus or lose his ego standing as a great translator of ancient religious texts.

I believe this is a much more detailed pro-Mormon site, going into detail about the translation methods and how Smith used aids but then eventually didn't need them: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Urim_and_Thummim

As I recall--geez, now you're gonna make me look this up again --there was a colonel so-and-so who started a dime museum traveling, or perhaps stationary, in the Utah area in the late 19th century, when any town of any size had to have a dime museum in it, and he had a lot of early Mormon "artifacts" though none of the original angel-touched stuff that would contract the stories of what was taken away.

I'm going to be lazy and not corroborate this, but the following site says Joseph Fielding Smith, whom Mormons would rely on, claims the urim and thummim went back with the plates:
http://askgramps.org/4692/what-happened-to-the-urim-and-thummim-after-the-book-of
"Joseph Fielding Smith, in his Doctrines of Salvation, 3:, p.225, says 'We have been taught since the days of the Prophet that the Urim and Thummim were returned with the plates to the angel. We have no record of the Prophet having the Urim and Thummim after the organization of the Church.' "

 

[JaysonR]

I'm not sure about the colonel, interesting, but the rest is right.
Cheers!

That was point about context.
If you apply context, the BoM is far from surprising, but is fascinating as a window into those times.