Not really. While the LDS was able to maintain a secret police and totalitarian control over the population when Utah was still a territory, that capability was quickly eroded when actual civilization returned* to the region in the form of a secular government. Things like polygamy and the clandestine murders committed by the "Avenging Angels" came to an end, but it was a rough and tumble battle. The big tipping point was a law forced down from the federal government banning bigamists from holding public office or working in law enforcement. It pretty much disenfranchised all the extremists not willing to become more moderate.
The process for disenfranchising the extremist Mormons in Utah was not dissimilar from the means used by Muslims to disenfranchise the Zoroastrians in the region we now know as Iran. I doubt the parallels were deliberate however.
There are, of course, splinter sects still preserving the old school Mormonism, as demonstrated by the events recorded in "
Under the Banner of Heaven." Fortunately, their ability to create and maintain a Brigham Young style theological dictatorship is severely limited by the real, civilized law enforcement presence in the state,
Blackmail, eh? Even more astonishing.
How would you describe threatening a person's afterlife based upon how well they did or did not obey you? "Blackmail" is a fairly kind term for it, almost a euphemism.
A group known as the "Morons" may have been involved in something like that.
I apologize for the typo. My typo however does not magically mean I wasn't referring to Mormons.
Since you still haven't clarified WHICH Corinthians you were referring to, I'll take a quick look at both.
You wrote:
skyrider44 said:
Corinthians 15:4-8; 9:1-5
Looking up the verses we get:
I Corinthians 15:4-8New International Version (NIV)
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[a] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Well, that hardly places Paul in the special theological position you've claimed. If anything it diminishes Paul's theological position by placing him, in his own words, in a group of
more than five hundred people. More to the point, this passages places a number of WOMEN on par with Paul. If one is to use this passage to argue that Paul is somehow elevated by Christ for special purpose then you must ALSO accept it as declaring that women be allowed into the priesthood.
Fortunately for Christian and Mormon Misogynists of all stripes, this passage is obviously about claiming a large number of witnesses to Christ's resurrection, NOT about declaring Paul as anything special, beyond being one of those many witnesses.
II Corinthians only has 13 chapters, so the first part of the mangled biblical reference has to be referring to the passage I just quoted.
2 Corinthians 9:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
9 There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the Lord’s people. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action. 3 But I am sending the brothers in order that our boasting about you in this matter should not prove hollow, but that you may be ready, as I said you would be. 4 For if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we—not to say anything about you—would be ashamed of having been so confident. 5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.
Clearly you must have been trying to reference I Corinthians in both cases.
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
Paul’s Rights as an Apostle
9 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
If anything, this argues in favor of theological relativism.
Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you!
The idea of an apostle being rejected by some and accepted by others is hardly unique, it's a significant factor in the distinctions between the existence of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.
Ultimately, all Paul is arguing is that he's an apostle to some, even if he's not an apostle to others. I suspect Shakespeare's "If you prick me, do I not bleed?" monologue drew some inspiration from this passage. The passage does NOT however, make any special arguments about the authority of an apostle. Indeed, Paul himself admits that there are over 500 men and women who can claim that title in the I Corinthians passage discussed earlier in this post.
Skyrider44, what IS your actual position on Paul, and what passages do you have to support it? You seem to have indirectly recanted or at least contradicted a good deal of what you'd said before. What meaning were you trying to convey with the list of passages you copied and pasted?
*I am of course saying civilization returned, because the Mormon settlers displaced an extant native population to provide a home for their regime. Think of them as a racially pure transitional dictatorship between civilized Native Americans an Democracy minded westerners.
