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LDS II: The Mormons

http://morningstarpost.wordpress.co...g-members-in-record-numbers-around-the-world/

This is not surprising. It's pretty much what I expected after the dismal participation numbers Jan posted. I wonder where we can get a Jupiter Talisman or two. I expect they'd make great holiday gifts for the Faithful Mormons one knows. Just be sure to mention that Smith wore one for protection from evil and leave it up to then to look up HOW.

And of course every good Mormon kid needs their own seeing hat and seeing stone.
 
In what is said to be Paul's account of Paul's opinion...Paul who never met Jesus (him said to be said to be 'the christ') and whose message is so oddly different form what is said to be attributed to Jesus, in the canon.

What is the source cited by those who say Paul never met Jesus, a position you appear to endorse?

Perhaps it's . . .

topix Islam, "Did Paul really meet Jesus? or its another myth of Paul!!!

OR

Unveiling Christianity, "Did Paul really meet Jesus?"

OR

Muslim Debate Initiative, "Did Paul actually meet Jesus?"

OR

Skeptics Annotated Bible, "Did Paul see Jesus on the road to Damascus?"

OR

Keywords Landing, "Did Paul Really See Jesus?"

OR

The John Ankerberg Show (various episodes with guests), "Did Paul actually see the risen Jesus, or did he simply have some sort of vision?"

OR

Muslim Responses, "The Problem of Paul"

OR

Debunking Christianity, "Paul and Visions"

Thus we see the "pristine" source material for many of the conjectured claims made in your all-too-convenient third/fourth/fifth citations ("who is said to have said," etc.).

You can't prove that Paul didn't have an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.
 
You can't prove that Paul didn't have an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

As the very links you posted highlight, the debate over if he met the "real" Jesus or had a vision is a theological one that's hotly contested by theologians.

Fortunately for us, the difference between a risen Jesus appearing in the flesh and Jesus appearing in a vision when recruiting Saul is irrelevant to the question of Paul's legitimacy as an apostle. If Jesus was responsible for whatever Saul saw, then his transformation into Paul is legitimate.

It's important to remember that early Christians would have seen the epistles in a light not unlike the Talmud. The writers would have seen their epistles in the same light, as guidance from wise teachers, but not divine edict. Treating the epistles with equal weight to the words of Jesus in the gospels is theologically flawed, even absurd. It's a church tradition that arouse around 400 or 500 C.E., and not the text of the Bible itself, that gives the writings of Paul greater weight than, for example, Thomas Aquinas or C. S. Lewis.

The elevation of the Epistles beyond anything their authors would have dared attach to them is the act not of a priest, but of the Roman Empire, as it crafted the Christian religion into a tool of conquest. Paul, given his education, life and writings, would no doubt have been horrified by the fact that we're discussing his words as if ANYONE would consider them of equal weight to those of Jesus.
 
What is the source cited by those who say Paul never met Jesus, a position you appear to endorse?

Perhaps it's . . .

topix Islam, "Did Paul really meet Jesus? or its another myth of Paul!!!

OR

Unveiling Christianity, "Did Paul really meet Jesus?"

OR

Muslim Debate Initiative, "Did Paul actually meet Jesus?"

OR

Skeptics Annotated Bible, "Did Paul see Jesus on the road to Damascus?"

OR

Keywords Landing, "Did Paul Really See Jesus?"

OR

The John Ankerberg Show (various episodes with guests), "Did Paul actually see the risen Jesus, or did he simply have some sort of vision?"

OR

Muslim Responses, "The Problem of Paul"

OR

Debunking Christianity, "Paul and Visions"


Thus we see the "pristine" source material for many of the conjectured claims made in your all-too-convenient third/fourth/fifth citations ("who is said to have said," etc.).

You can't prove that Paul didn't have an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Thank you for posting all of the sources as live links; it will save me so much time when I look them up to read them.

However:

You are once again getting it backwards; that is, trying to deflect the burden of proof.

Once again, the only record said to be claimed to be words and teachings authentically (or, if you prefer, canonically) attributed to Paul, himself, includes Galatians 1:11-12. For anyone who takes the canon seriously, it is difficult to say that something included in the canon should, or even can, be superceded by extra-canonical materials.

You have demonstrated the high regard in which you hold the canon; you have also demonstrated an unwillingness to provide actual sources for specific doctrines about which you have been asked.

However: just as there is no instance of words said to be said to be attributed to Jesus (as recorded in the xian canon) addressing homosexuality; or addressing men "becoming 'gods' ", or repudiating the canonically recorded teaching said to be said to be attributed to Jesus that those of the resurrection neither marry nor are given on marriage; there is no instance of words said to be said to be attributed to Paul (as recorded in the xian canon) in which Paul claims to have met Jesus in person, outside his hallucination.

You are, of course, as free to repudiate the contents of the canon as you are to disown the words of one of your sectarian authorities.

That does not make your claim that I cannot, for instance, prove that Jesus was not an MMA sempai (as Christopher Moore would have it) any stronger. You are, of course, free to claim that your Jesus told you anything you can invent--but you should realize how thin is the ice across which you try to parade that banner.

And, of course, much of xiandom will continue to look to the canon.
 
[ . . . ]

You can't prove that Paul didn't have an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

More to the point, you can't prove Paul had an encounter with a man who'd been killed some time ago, rather than simply hearing voices in his head.
 
All right.

I have pusued the links you did not provide; the ones you imply are the "source" of my claim that the Pauline corpus itself is said to be said to contain the claim, attributed to Paul, thet Paul only met Jesus in his hallucinations.

Let's unpack:

To begin,

topix Islam, "Did Paul really meet Jesus? or its another myth of Paul!!!
(here's the link, so you can read it: http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/TD4V3VF9O7KSOPIG7)

Unveiling Christianity, "Did Paul really meet Jesus?";
(here's the link, so you can read it: http://unveiling-christianity.org/2008/04/06/did-paul-really-meet-jesus/)

Muslim Debate Initiative, "Did Paul actually meet Jesus?"
(here's the link, so you can read it: http://www.muslimdebate.org/polemics/christianity/240-did-paul-actually-meet-jesus)

...and...

Muslim Responses, "The Problem of Paul"
(here's the link, so you can read it: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/problem_of_paul.htm)

...are all simply recopies of the same article, apparently first published in 2009. The author, Sami Zaatri, makes the point that the canonic record of Paul's Damascus Experience does not, in fact, admit to any reasonable interpretation other than that Paul had a "vision" of a "meeting" with a dead man.

This one,

Skeptics Annotated Bible, "Did Paul see Jesus on the road to Damascus?"
(here's the link, so you can read it: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/paul_see.html)

...takes the form of posing a question, and presenting a positive and negative answer for comment (which is the SAB schtick); as of 7:01 AM MDT 29 May 2014, no poster has yet answered, either the positive of the negative.

This one:

Debunking Christianity, "Paul and Visions"
(here's the lonk, so you can read it: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/05/paul-and-visions.html)

...compares Paul's "vision" of Jesus on the road to Damascus (from the canon) with "visions" of the Virgin Mary.

I did not pursue this one:

The John Ankerberg Show (various episodes with guests), "Did Paul actually see the risen Jesus, or did he simply have some sort of vision?"

...for reasons I have explained before.

Frankly, this one:
Keywords Landing, "Did Paul Really See Jesus?"

...appears to be you mistakenly including your search terms as a search result; at any rate, a web search did not produce an article of this title and attribution.

Do note that the "source" for my claim that Paul is sad to be said to have boasted that he met "the lord" only in his vision, is the xian canon, which has been my point all along.

Your claim:

What is the source cited by those who say Paul never met Jesus, a position you appear to endorse?
Perhaps it's . . .

...implying that my "source" for an observation, based upon what is actually included in the xian canon, is articles about the same point (particularly given the recent provenance of the articles you provided) is demonstrably incorrect. My source is the canon itself.

I do wonder at the purpose of your duplicated citations of Zaatri's article . Did you read it? Did you not notice that you sourced the same thing four times? (I admit that I have an idea about what you thought you were doing...)

Your conclusion,

Thus we see the "pristine" source material for many of the conjectured claims made in your all-too-convenient third/fourth/fifth citations ("who is said to have said," etc.).

...is erroneous. My source, as I have pointed out, is the xian canon. Others agree with me, using the same source.

I wonder at your scare-quoted use of "pristine". Do you claim that I used that word? Is this just another example of you attributing words to me, words that I did not use?

What you call my

...third/fourth/fifth citations...

...are not actually "citations" at all. I have explained the form, "said to be said to be attributed", and will continue to use it to make it clear that I am not attesting to the authenticity, or accuracy, of the canon; only to its content.


As far as:

You can't prove that Paul didn't have an encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.

I don't have to "prove" anything. The onus probandi is yours. The canon is not said to be said to record any meeting of Paul and Jesus before Jesus was killed.

I am curious as to what, in your opinion, are limits of what can be claimed about extracanonical activities and concepts. Does it make sense to say that you cannot prove that Judas was not a tansvestite pole-dancer? That you cannot prove that Jesus wasn't a gringo?

My point has been, and will continue to be, that such are not said to be said to be recorded in canon.
 
As the very links you posted highlight, the debate over if he met the "real" Jesus or had a vision is a theological one that's hotly contested by theologians.

In other words, the answer isn't clear cut as at least one participant on this thread insists that it is.

Fortunately for us, the difference between a risen Jesus appearing in the flesh and Jesus appearing in a vision when recruiting Saul is irrelevant to the question of Paul's legitimacy as an apostle. If Jesus was responsible for whatever Saul saw, then his transformation into Paul is legitimate.

Nicely stated.

It's important to remember that early Christians would have seen the epistles in a light not unlike the Talmud. The writers would have seen their epistles in the same light, as guidance from wise teachers, but not divine edict.

You lose me here. To which epistles are you referring in the second sentence and the third sentence?

Treating the epistles with equal weight to the words of Jesus in the gospels is theologically flawed, even absurd. It's a church tradition that arouse around 400 or 500 C.E., and not the text of the Bible itself, that gives the writings of Paul greater weight than, for example, Thomas Aquinas or C. S. Lewis.

So, you're referring to Paul's epistles. What caused the "church tradition" to arise? Surely it didn't come out of nowhere. It seems obvious that while Paul's epistles were not equal in weight to the words of Jesus, many Christians took Paul's words seriously inasmuch as they believed he had, indeed, been commissioned an apostle by Jesus Christ.

The elevation of the Epistles beyond anything their authors would have dared attach to them is the act not of a priest, but of the Roman Empire, as it crafted the Christian religion into a tool of conquest. Paul, given his education, life and writings, would no doubt have been horrified by the fact that we're discussing his words as if ANYONE would consider them of equal weight to those of Jesus.

I haven't said Paul's epistles were of equal weight to the words of Jesus. I have suggested that they weren't the creation of a mindless, egocentric, wandering preacher, as some hereon suppose the better to dismiss Paul's disapproval of homosexuality.
 
You lose me here. To which epistles are you referring in the second sentence and the third sentence?
...
So, you're referring to Paul's epistles.

I'm referring to all the epistles.

The council of Nicene crafted the bible quite carefully, creating a number of parallels between the Jewish writings they codified as the "Old Testament" and the Newer writings they codified as the "New Testament."

Both testaments have a core of "Holy" scriptures, the Five books of Moses and the Four Gospels.

Both have a "History" section. The period of the Judges through the rule of Solomon in the OT, and the Acts of the Apostles in the NT.

This is where the two testaments diverge. Since the new version of Christianity was based upon Gentile Christianity and not Jewish Christianity, it was necessary to explain why Gentile Christians did not have to follow the Jewish purity laws. The reality is the Incident at Antioch resulted in the apostles making the executive decision to let Gentiles off the hook. Since "A committee decided it" didn't exactly work for religions until Smith came along it was necessary to craft the claim that Jesus somehow "fulfilled" the scriptures. As a result, the New Testament completely lacks a section of Major and Minor prophets. It goes straight to compiling a Talmud, a collection of writings by learned Rabbis.

The actual Talmud was excluded from the Christian bible for a number of reasons. The OT was already much longer than the NT, and a good deal of the Talmud simply could not coexist in the same active religion as Christianity. The Post Priesthood Rabbinical writings would have posed a major challenge to Church authority, and since Christianity was being codified by the Roman Empire as a means of unifying and controlling a populace, building in challenges to Church authority would have been an astoundingly incompetent act.

The study of how the Bible was compiled is a fascinating one, especially given the often political motives for many exclusions and inclusions.

This gets us into one of the nifty things Joseph Smith tried to do. The Book of Mormon is an attempt to create Major and Minor Prophets section for Christianity, but Smith bungled it a bit and make it more of an extended history than prophesy.

The book of Revelations bounced on and off the cutting room floor for quite a while. Clearly it was an effort to add a "Prophesy" section to the New Testament, but the symmetry broke because, due to it's apocalyptic nature, it had to be placed at the end instead of between Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles. That, however, is a minor reason for it's near omission from the cannon compared to its guano crazy content.

Surely it didn't come out of nowhere. It seems obvious that while Paul's epistles were not equal in weight to the words of Jesus, many Christians took Paul's words seriously inasmuch as they believed he had, indeed, been commissioned an apostle by Jesus Christ.

Correct. Paul is clearly positioning himself as the Christian version of a learned Jewish Rabbi. Of all the epistle writers he probably has the strongest claim to such a position, even without the claim of Jesus selecting him as an apostle. Keep in mind, the opinions of the Rabbis recorded in the Talmud are taken very seriously by modern Jews. The mistake for a Christian is not in taking Paul seriously or considering his words valuable, but in considering ANY of the epistles to be of equal weight to the Gospels.

I haven't said Paul's epistles were of equal weight to the words of Jesus.

Why then did you quote him, why did you even bring him up, when we were discussing what Jesus did or did not say about Homosexuality? I'm not going to backtrack through the thread to see if you explicitly equated Paul's words with those of Jesus, but you certainly strongly implied equivalence. Here is just one example of where you equate the words of the Apostles with those of Jesus:

The NT doesn't end with the book of John. Saul (Paul), commissioned an apostle by the risen Savior, speaks clearly against the practice in Romans, 1 Cor., and I Tim.--a fact you prefer to ignore. At the Last Supper, Jesus encouraged his disciples to carry on his work, which some of them did, giving their lives for so doing. Then, too, there is condemnation of the practice in three books of the OT (multiple passages).
 
I knew the LDS leadership was capable of some shady dealings, but resorting to sketchy interpretations of Copyright law to harass legitimate businesspeople is just plain petty.

'Mormon Match' Dating Site Fights Trademark Claim Filed By LDS Church

Latter-day Saints claims IP rights to block “Mormon” dating site

Funny how the scumballs haven't gone after all the conservative offshoots that call themselves "Mormon" but are going after people whose business model ultimately focuses on HELPING MORE MORMONS GET MARRIED.

Seriously LDS. This is NOT a battle worth fighting.
 
. . . Why then did you quote him, why did you even bring him up, when we were discussing what Jesus did or did not say about Homosexuality?

Look no further than Mark 13:9-11 to see why the apostles used words that approximated Jesus's counsel to them: "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them./And the gospel must first be published among all nations./
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost" [emphasis added].

In discussing his pending death, Jesus told the apostles that he would send them the Holy Ghost. And in Mark he tells them that the Holy Ghost would dictate their speech when they were in peril. You, however, seem unable to understand the fact that there is linkage between Paul's utterances about homosexuality and the counsel of Jesus. While Paul was not one of he original apostles, he was made such by his encounter with the risen Savior. He received the Holy Ghost, who--speaking as a member of the Godhead--directed him to say what he said about homosexuality. That may help to explain why some on this thread find it necessary to reject the "road to Damascus" account.

I'm not going to backtrack through the thread to see if you explicitly equated Paul's words with those of Jesus, but you certainly strongly implied equivalence.

Indeed I did, and--as I explain above--for good reason.
 
Remember the gay Mormons in the "I’m a Mormon" videos not long ago? Yeah, about that...

Two Activists Within Mormon Church Threatened With Excommunication

Two Mormons who have gained national attention for pushing their church to ordain women to the priesthood and to accept openly gay members have been notified this week that they face excommunication for apostasy.

Threatening to kick a woman out for asking women to be ordained is something I don't find surprising, but the guy they're kicking out over gay member issues seems to be the exact kind of guy they WANT in the church if they want to moderate their public image about homosexuality.

It's pretty clear to me that the talk about kindness to gays is just that, talk. What's unknown is if they'll try to maintain the efforts at culturing a public image of moderation towards homosexuals, or if they'll double-down on the fire and brimstone.

It's an interesting dance they're doing. They want to LOOK accepting of homosexuals for public image purposes, but don't actually want them around. It's not unlike the position of non-white priests. Yes, they can technically be ordained now, but you don't really see them outside of areas where whites are scarce, and they certainly don't rise to the top of the church hierarchy.
 
Look no further than Mark 13:9-11 to see why the apostles used words that approximated Jesus's counsel to them: "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them./And the gospel must first be published among all nations./
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost" [emphasis added].

In discussing his pending death, Jesus told the apostles that he would send them the Holy Ghost. And in Mark he tells them that the Holy Ghost would dictate their speech when they were in peril. You, however, seem unable to understand the fact that there is linkage between Paul's utterances about homosexuality and the counsel of Jesus. While Paul was not one of he original apostles, he was made such by his encounter with the risen Savior. He received the Holy Ghost, who--speaking as a member of the Godhead--directed him to say what he said about homosexuality. That may help to explain why some on this thread find it necessary to reject the "road to Damascus" account.

Indeed I did, and--as I explain above--for good reason.

Continuing to either overlook or purposely avoid the fact that Jesus is not said to be said to have mentioned Saul Tarsi as one of those who would be said to be said to "receive the holy spirit" (that "spirit" for the existence of which there is so much objective, empirical, practical, physical, non-anecdotal evidence [/sarcasm]); and, as you have admitted, Paul's accounts of his "visions" are the only canonic pretense that Paul is said to be said to have "met" Jesus--after Jesus was supposed to have been executed.

All of which presupposes the very existence of the 'godhead' from which you claim to get your anti-homosexual prejudices; that very existence for which there is, of course, so much practical, physical, objective, non-anecdotal, empirical evidence [/sarcasm].

That 'godhead' whose leadership, as personified by someone who presents himself as one who can define, and speak for, the C'JC'LDS in his capacity as a sectarian authority, you feel free to repudiate when you find it inconvenient.

Finally (and this is a point you have not addressed in multiple posts, after having been asked it multiple times), even if (do notice that this represents a hypothetical) there were, in fact, words said to be said to be attributed to Jesus in the xian canon which did, in fact, condemn homosexuality*, why do you think those words, said to be said to be addressed to those who would "follow" that Jesus, can be pretended in any way to be taken as license by those "followers" to attempt to influence, much less attempt to control by suasion and the power of law, the behaviour of those for whom that Jesus has no credibility, has no reality, and cannot be argued to have any authority?

I have said all along that you are free to order your life according to whichever ones of the doctrines of your bunch you deign to accept. What you are not free to to is try to make the law force me and mine to accept your strictures.

That's the reason the First Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified--to keep you and yours, and others like you and yours, from trying to pretend to a theocracy on the ashes of the common weal.

*(...or spoke in any way of "men becoming 'gods' ", or repudiated the teaching about neither marrying nor being given in marriage after the resurrection--points you have yet to address in any way.
 
...but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost" [emphasis added].

In discussing his pending death, Jesus told the apostles that he would send them the Holy Ghost. And in Mark he tells them that the Holy Ghost would dictate their speech when they were in peril....

We have in Mark 5:11, "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." [my emphasis]

So, when Paul spoke out against homosexuality, he had been arrested and was testifying at his trial? Interesting defense strategy.
 
We have in Mark 5:11, "Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit." [my emphasis]

So, when Paul spoke out against homosexuality, he had been arrested and was testifying at his trial? Interesting defense strategy.

The logic is tortured, but the general premise is to take a passage consoling the apostles that God will guide their words when they're arrested and put on trial for their faith and extrapolate it to attach divine authority to everything they say.

This interpretation became popular under the Roman Catholic church as a means of extending the authority of the church in general and the Pope in particular. Pastors in the New Apostolic Reformation use that irrational extrapolation as well because it allows them to attach Biblical level authority to their own sermons.

Ultimately, excessive important is attached to the words of Paul because people are swallowing a centuries old mangling of scripture designed to allow authority figures to control parishioners. I'm not surprised Mormons fall for it too. A good deal of that faith is based upon believing the man at the head of the LDS is a prophet on par with the Apostles. Mormons have been conditioned to accept living authority figures as proxies for God, so it's perfectly natural for them to attach excessive divine importance to the Epistles.

I am not failing to understand the arguments, I'm just aware of the fact that they are a twisting of scripture intended to allow church leaders to manipulate and control members.
 
All this argument about what Paul and the gospel authors said is rendered irrelevant by the facts that the Book of Mormon still makes claims that are flat-out contradicted by paleontology, archaeology, linguistics and genetics, and the Book of Abraham is a fabrication that bears no resemblance to the narrative of the funerary text from which it was claimed to be translated. Joseph Smith was a fraud who made things up in order to gain wealth. This is the issue that must be addressed by anyone claiming that Mormonism represents a true depiction of the universe.
 
All this argument about what Paul and the gospel authors said is rendered irrelevant by the facts that the Book of Mormon still makes claims that are flat-out contradicted by paleontology, archaeology, linguistics and genetics, and the Book of Abraham is a fabrication that bears no resemblance to the narrative of the funerary text from which it was claimed to be translated. Joseph Smith was a fraud who made things up in order to gain wealth. This is the issue that must be addressed by anyone claiming that Mormonism represents a true depiction of the universe.


I recently had a chat with some some of the extremist Mormons I know. They have a fascinating explanation for the genetic evidence that the Native Americans aren't Jewish. They latch onto a conspiracy theory that claims modern Jews are not actually descended from the Jews of antiquity but people who were labeled Jews in the Middle Ages or later.

The idea is that Jews outside the Americas went extinct, but the Illuminati labeled collections of Roma as Jews to recreate the extinct race for political purposes. In this context, the genetic evidence becomes proof not that the Native Americans are not Jews, but that Middle Eastern and European Jews are not real Jews!

It's a fascinating example of how religious apologetics can emerge from a fusion of racism and mythology.
 
"'Highly spiritual’ Oregon high school shooter Jared Padgett wrote plans to kill 'sinners' in diary"
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime...lan-kill-sinners-cops-article-1.1829711#bmb=1

The 15-year-old freshman who opened fire on his Oregon high school Tuesday wanted to kill "sinners," the teen wrote in his diary.

Jared Padgett, an active member of an Gresham, Ore., Mormon church, shot and killed a student and injured a teacher during the attack on Reynolds High School before turning the gun on himself, police said.

While searching through the teen's home, officers found his journal, Portland's KGW reported.

In the diary, Padgett detailed plans to kill the "sinners" at his school, police said.

No specific students or teachers were named as targets. His writings did not outline how or when the killings would occur, police said.

Padgett was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
 
So, when Paul spoke out against homosexuality, he had been arrested and was testifying at his trial? Interesting defense strategy.

Your conclusion strengthens my position while weakening yours, inasmuch as when "Paul spoke out against homosexuality," the words he used to respond to his accusers were given to him by the Holy Ghost.
 

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