Lafayette Park Update

[Mumbles]

The Secret Service is mentioned 87 times and the Bureau of Prison (BOP) 35 times in the Review of U.S. Park Police Actions at Lafayette Park. It covers their actions in detail.

No, it doesn't, and it doesn't cover the *reasons* for their violent attack at all. The obvious answer would be "Bill Barr, having surveyed the scene minutes earlier, ordered them to attack while Dolt 45 was blathering about how "you need to dominate".

Let's not pretend these bigoted goons were ever subtle.

(would also explain their other activities that day, of course, but that's a bit seperate)

 

[Norman Alexander]

Nice try(not really, it's rather pathetic).

Trump, Esper and McCarthy ordered the DCNG to flood the zone with all available assets. Trump did not specifically order helicopters to perform a show of force at extremely low levels directly over a crowd, those decisions were made at a much lower level in the chain of command.

It's like trying to blame George H.W. Bush for Apache pilots destroying two US armored vehicles in Desert Storm after he told the military to expel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait with all available assets.

Nice try (not).

You have just agreed that Donny DID order the attack. But then try to say he is blameless because apparently he did not specifically say "witb ground troops and force and tear gas and Park Police with helicopters above them."

He was the Commander in Chief. He did not have to say all that. "All available assets" covers it. He IS responsible. Quibble all you like, your report says so. And you have still not answered my query about Park Police attacking Australian journalists to build a fence.

 

[Bogative]

He was the Commander in Chief. He did not have to say all that. "All available assets" covers it. He IS responsible.

He is responsible, no doubt about it. There's a huge difference between being responsible for something and ordering it. Just as George H W Bush was responsible for the friendly fire incident I mentioned earlier, but not to blame because he did not order the attack to kill US troops.

 

[Bogative]

The obvious answer would be "Bill Barr, having surveyed the scene minutes earlier, ordered them to attack while Dolt 45 was blathering about how "you need to dominate".

The obvious answer why NORAD did not shoot down any of the hijacked airliners on 9/11 is because Dick Cheney was hiding in a bunker ordering a stand down.

 

[Stacyhs]

No, it doesn't, and it doesn't cover the *reasons* for their violent attack at all. The obvious answer would be "Bill Barr, having surveyed the scene minutes earlier, ordered them to attack while Dolt 45 was blathering about how "you need to dominate".

Let's not pretend these bigoted goons were ever subtle.

(would also explain their other activities that day, of course, but that's a bit seperate)

It's hard to imagine how they could be mentioned 87 and 35 times and not have covered their actions that day in detail...because they did.

As for Bill Barr, unless you have evidence that he actually used the word "attack" or similar, I'd suggest you're being hyperbolic. What the report did find was that Barr had no influence in hastening the park's clearing. Now, you obviously want to believe otherwise...and frankly, I would have loved it had been true...but the facts do not support that. And I am not willing to go the "but, but, but...Greenblatt's a dishonest Trump flunky so the report's bogus" routine when there is no evidence supporting that just to confirm my own bias.

The USPP operations commander denied that the Attorney General ordered him to clear Lafayette Park and H Street.

Both the USPP incident commander and the USPP operations commander told us the USPP initiated the operational plan before the Attorney General arrived in Lafayette Park and that the Attorney General’s presence in the park had no influence on the USPP’s timeline for the operation. The USPP incident commander explained the USPP wanted to clear the area “as early
as possible and [as] safely as we c[ould]” to erect the fence and de-escalate the situation. He added that the Attorney General was “not in his chain of command” and that clearing the park had “nothing to do with [him] or the President wanting to come out.” He stated, “This plan doesn’t get developed in 2 minutes . . . [The Attorney General] might be a very important guy in
the Government, he’s just not my boss.

The USPP acting chief of police, USPP incident commander, and USPP operations commander all told us they had no reason to believe that the Attorney General's visit to the park at 6: 10 p.m. influenced the Secret
Service's early deployment.

We also found no evidence that the Attorney General’s visit to Lafayette Park at 6:10 p.m. caused the USPP to alter its plans to clear the park.

No one we interviewed stated that the USPP cleared the park because of a potential visit by the President or that the USPP altered the timeline to accommodate the President’s movement.

 

[Mumbles]

It's hard to imagine how they could be mentioned 87 and 35 times and not have covered their actions that day in detail...because they did.

As for Bill Barr, unless you have evidence that he actually used the word "attack" or similar, I'd suggest you're being hyperbolic. What the report did find was that Barr had no influence in hastening the park's clearing. Now, you obviously want to believe otherwise...and frankly, I would have loved it had been true...but the facts do not support that. And I am not willing to go the "but, but, but...Greenblatt's a dishonest Trump flunky so the report's bogus" routine when there is no evidence supporting that just to confirm my own bias.

Noooo, it found that Barr didn't order the Park Service to do anything.

So what? Secret Service went on the attack first, not Parks.

 

[Stacyhs]

Noooo, it found that Barr didn't order the Park Service to do anything.

So what? Secret Service went on the attack first, not Parks.

You wrote:

No, it doesn't, and it doesn't cover the *reasons* for their violent attack at all. The obvious answer would be "Bill Barr, having surveyed the scene minutes earlier, ordered them to attack while Dolt 45 was blathering about how "you need to dominate".
Let's not pretend these bigoted goons were ever subtle.

(would also explain their other activities that day, of course, but that's a bit seperate)

You never specified the SS from the Park Police. But now that I've shown that the PP were not ordered by Barr "to attack" as you put it, you narrow it to the SS. It is unknown why the SS deployed to H Street early:

The USPP civil disturbance unit commander, the USPP operations commander, and the USPP incident commander all told us that the Secret Service lieutenant later apologized for the early entry onto H Street during the operation but did not explain why it occurred. The USPP officers we interviewed did not know why the Secret Service entered H Street before the USPP gave the first dispersal warning. Some speculated it occurred because of miscommunication between a Secret Service supervisor and his officers near the gate area. Others guessed it could have
occurred because the USPP and the Secret Service did not have a shared radio channel and had no way of intercepting and resolving conflicting radio communications. The USPP acting chief of police, USPP incident commander, and USPP operations commander all told us they had no reason to believe that the Attorney General's visit to the park at 6: 10 p.m. influenced the Secret Service's early deployment.

There is no evidence that the SS were ordered to deploy early by Barr. I know you want it to be so, but that does not make it so.

 

[Mumbles]

You wrote:
You never specified the SS from the Park Police. But now that I've shown that the PP were not ordered by Barr "to attack" as you put it, you narrow it to the SS. It is unknown why the SS deployed to H Street early:


There is no evidence that the SS were ordered to deploy early by Barr. I know you want it to be so, but that does not make it so.

I'm quite free to come to my own conclusions here, and given Barr's overwhelming corruption, and Dolt 45's love of overt and violent white supremacism, I can add 2+2. I have enough for my purpose - if someone wishes to exonerate him, they can jolly well show that the SS attacked because of some fencing. I assume SS would say so if true - Barr himself is known to lie under oath, so that's a problem he made for himself.

 

[Norman Alexander]

He is responsible, no doubt about it. There's a huge difference between being responsible for something and ordering it. Just as George H W Bush was responsible for the friendly fire incident I mentioned earlier, but not to blame because he did not order the attack to kill US troops.

Nope. The Mango Moron was top of the food chain and in charge at the scene because he was on the scene. He said he wanted "all available assets" to flood the zone - clear the space. That is a direct order from the top to the field commanders if you like. Therefore he is responsible.

Stop trying to make this about Bush and some other completely different and unrelated scenario. It only makes you look silly.

And once again, you have completely ignored my request to explain the video of Park Police violently bashing Australian journalists with shields and batons. If that was how they put up a fence in Washington then they are going about it the wrong way. Don't you agree?

 

[Donal]

You never specified the SS from the Park Police. But now that I've shown that the PP were not ordered by Barr "to attack" as you put it, you narrow it to the SS. It is unknown why the SS deployed to H Street early:

Why would the Park Police know about the secret service deployment? Especially if it was ordered just prior to the attack the protestors?

There is no evidence that the SS were ordered to deploy early by Barr. I know you want it to be so, but that does not make it so.

The Park Police could not provide such evidence. Even if the commanding officers suspected that Barr gave such an order, they aren't going to put something like that in a report unless they had actual evidence of it.

There's also the assumption that officers would have needed to be directly ordered to use such methods. If they get issued riot gear and are told to take an aggressive posture, what precisely do you expect them to do?

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm quite free to come to my own conclusions here, and given Barr's overwhelming corruption, and Dolt 45's love of overt and violent white supremacism, I can add 2+2. I have enough for my purpose - if someone wishes to exonerate him, they can jolly well show that the SS attacked because of some fencing. I assume SS would say so if true - Barr himself is known to lie under oath, so that's a problem he made for himself.

Of course you're free to come to your own conclusions, but in this case, your 2+2 isn't based on evidence but on what you want to be true. To use your argument, if someone wants to blame Barr, then they can jolly well show that he ordered the "SS attack" because of Trump's visit. Now, if in the future, evidence come out that the "SS attacked" due to a direct order from Barr (as you claimed), I'm more than willing to lay blame on him because I go by the evidence...whether it agrees with my personal desires or not. As of now, and according to the IG's report, it just doesn't.

To use your argument, if someone wants to blame Barr, then they can jolly well show that he ordered the "SS attack" because of Trump's visit.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Of course you're free to come to your own conclusions, but in this case, your 2+2 isn't based on evidence but on what you want to be true. To use your argument, if someone wants to blame Barr, then they can jolly well show that he ordered the "SS attack" because of Trump's visit. Now, if in the future, evidence come out that the "SS attacked" due to a direct order from Barr (as you claimed), I'm more than willing to lay blame on him because I go by the evidence...whether it agrees with my personal desires or not. As of now, and according to the IG's report, it just doesn't.

To use your argument, if someone wants to blame Barr, then they can jolly well show that he ordered the "SS attack" because of Trump's visit.

So they are all totally out of control and randomly attacking peaceful protestors? I mean I get that it is not uncommon but that kind of total breakdown of control of the police agencies there is not being blamed either.

 

[Stacyhs]

Why would the Park Police know about the secret service deployment? Especially if it was ordered just prior to the attack the protestors?

The PP and the SS were working in joint command. They were not working independently. All quotes from the report.

On May 30, the USPP and U.S. Secret Service established a unified command to coordinate the law enforcement response to the protests.

However, it was also noted that communication between them was not great:

The USPP civil disturbance unit commander, the USPP operations commander, and the USPP incident commander all told us that the Secret Service lieutenant later apologized for the early entry onto H Street during the operation but did not explain why it occurred. The USPP officers we interviewed did not know why the Secret Service entered H Street before the USPP gave the first dispersal warning. Some speculated it occurred because of miscommunication between a Secret Service supervisor and his officers near the gate area. Others guessed it could have occurred because the USPP and the Secret Service did not have a shared radio channel and had no way of intercepting and resolving conflicting radio communications. The USPP acting chief of police, USPP incident commander, and USPP operations commander all told us they had no reason to believe that the Attorney General's visit to the park at 6: 10 p.m. influenced the Secret
Service's early deployment.

So assigning the early deployment of the SS to an order from Barr is pure speculation.

The Park Police could not provide such evidence. Even if the commanding officers suspected that Barr gave such an order, they aren't going to put something like that in a report unless they had actual evidence of it.

No, they couldn't provide such evidence because:

Quote:
The USPP acting chief of police, USPP incident commander, and USPP operations commander all told us they had no reason to believe that the Attorney General's visit to the park at 6: 10 p.m. influenced the Secret Service's early deployment.

But now you're just speculating about what the CO's would or wouldn't do.

There's also the assumption that officers would have needed to be directly ordered to use such methods. If they get issued riot gear and are told to take an aggressive posture, what precisely do you expect them to do?

I've never mentioned the methods used so I don't know why you're asking me that. My posts are most certainly not in defense of what happened because I think it was disgusting. My posts have all been in rebuttal to Mumbles' claim that it was Barr who ordered the "SS attack". I'm also not claiming that Barr did not order the SS in early. I'm saying there is no evidence of it as of now so to make that claim, as Mumbles did, is not founded in fact.

 

[Stacyhs]

So they are all totally out of control and randomly attacking peaceful protestors?

I mean I get that it is not uncommon but that kind of total breakdown of control of the police agencies there is not being blamed either.

I never said that and how you infer I did is beyond me. Someone or something caused the SS to deploy early. We just don't know who or what that was. That's all I've ever said.

Some posters here are having trouble understanding that and are somehow inferring that my posts are in defense of what happened at Lafayette Park. They most certainly are not.

 

[Donal]

The PP and the SS were working in joint command. They were not working independently. All quotes from the report.


However, it was also noted that communication between them was not great:

Do you see the problem there?

So assigning the early deployment of the SS to an order from Barr is pure speculation.

More of an educated guess. And a safe bet.

No, they couldn't provide such evidence because:

But now you're just speculating about what the CO's would or wouldn't do.

Unless they had direct evidence, they aren't going to put it in the official report. Agree or disagree?

I've never mentioned the methods used so I don't know why you're asking me that. My posts are most certainly not in defense of what happened because I think it was disgusting. My posts have all been in rebuttal to Mumbles' claim that it was Barr who ordered the "SS attack". I'm also not claiming that Barr did not order the SS in early. I'm saying there is no evidence of it as of now so to make that claim, as Mumbles did, is not founded in fact.

So, you agree that it is NOT an exoneration of Trump or his administration?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I never said that and how you infer I did is beyond me. Someone or something caused the SS to deploy early. We just don't know who or what that was. That's all I've ever said.

Some posters here are having trouble understanding that and are somehow inferring that my posts are in defense of what happened at Lafayette Park. They most certainly are not.

They were either under the control of someone or out of control. It is simple deduction. Now I get that cops don't really need a reason to attack a peaceful protest as they can always invent something, but it seems rather suspicious at the timing of the whole photo op.

 

[dudalb]

He is responsible, no doubt about it. There's a huge difference between being responsible for something and ordering it. Just as George H W Bush was responsible for the friendly fire incident I mentioned earlier, but not to blame because he did not order the attack to kill US troops.

God, what bunch of Semantic BS.

 

[kookbreaker]

God, what bunch of Semantic BS.

“Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

“Will no one beat and tear gas a path through protestors so I can hold a bible upside down on camera?”

 

[Norman Alexander]

C'mon, Bogative. Explain who was responsible for this. Pictures of police assaulting foreign journalists included. Who ordered them to do this?

 

[Stacyhs]

Do you see the problem there?

No. Their communication was bad, but that is not evidence that BARR ordered the SS to go in.

More of an educated guess. And a safe bet.

Nope. Pure speculation. I suggest you stay away from the casinos. Once again, you want it to be true which biases how you see it. I don't blame you for that because my bias is the same. Apparently, I'm just better able to acknowledge that and put it aside.

Unless they had direct evidence, they aren't going to put it in the official report. Agree or disagree?

Nope. The report included the speculation of those there to try and explain why the SS deployed (as I quoted). If a anyone had speculated it was Barr, they would have included that, too. No one did. If fact, those interviewed made a point of saying "they had no reason to believe that the Attorney General's visit to the park at 6: 10 p.m. influenced the Secret Service's early deployment."

So, you agree that it is NOT an exoneration of Trump or his administration?

Absolutely. I've never said otherwise. I would think I've been posting on here long enough to have made my absolute disgust and abhorrence for Trump and his administration absolutely clear. And I've posted twice already in this thread that I was in no way defending what happened that day as I found it disgusting. I really don't know why that is so hard for some on here to understand.