Judge's son gunned down, hitman found dead in car

[Babbylonian]

Is that actually "true mafia style" or idle speculation made to turn a failed amateurish attempt at murdering a judge into a professional hit carried out by powerful organised criminals?

Apart from friends shooting [former] friends with small-caliber weapons when they don't expect it followed by placement of the body in a pre-dug hole, I'm pretty sure there is no "true mafia style." It's just whomever is willing to kill is sent to kill.

All the trying to make it look like an accident or framing another person (beyond a nebulous "maybe some other organization did it") are products of fiction writers who want to make their work more entertaining.

In this case, we've got a guy who believed he was going to die who probably panicked when the door opened and shot the wrong person. At that point, between the guilt of killing an innocent (in his mind) person and the belief that death was imminent anyway, the murderer selected suicide instead of a miserable term in prison that wasn't going to last long anyway. I really can't fault his terminal reasoning; if only he'd been thinking so clearly and logically before he started shooting people.

 

[smartcooky]

When you want to intimidate judges, witness, prosecutors, etc., you need to send them a clear message that their enemies are out to get them and they better step into line or they'll be the next vicitim or the threats will be carried out.

What you don't do is set up a pathetic anti-feminist MRA activity lawyer with a grudge, who has a terminal illness, make a botched assassination on a judge, commit suicide, leave behind him screeds of MRA anti-feminist material, etc.
When the mafia assassinate a judge, they want other judges and prosecutors that was the mafia who assassinated the judge, because that's how you send a message. "Don't **** with the mafia or we'll get you next". You need to know it was the mafia (or whatever shadowy organisation is out to get you).

This is a really stupid way to send a message to prosecutors and judges by convincing them that the gunman was a sad pathetic loner deep into the MRA anti-feminist movement who killed himself after failing to kill his target.

What ad-hoc excuse are you going to come up for why this actually somehow makes sense?

THIS!!!

Conspiracy Nutjob's Handbook 101: The perpetrators will leave a crapload of obvious clues to show what they have done.

In the real world, government hit squads leave NO CLUES AT ALL

Honestly, conspiratards must think government agents are really stupid and really incompetant. The scenario Vixen is claiming plays out like a bad episode of the keystone cops!

 

[BStrong]

It's called intimidation of witnesses, judges, prosecutors. The mafia in Italy have killed off lots of judges and tampered with witnesses.

snipped

Citation needed.

The assassination of one prosecutor in Sicily:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Falcone

In the major crackdown against the Mafia following Falcone and Borsellino's deaths, Riina was arrested on 15 January 1993, and was serving a life sentence, until his death in 2017, for sanctioning the murders of both magistrates as well as many other crimes.[32] Another Mafioso convicted of the murder of Falcone is Giovanni Brusca, also known as lo scannacristiani (the people slaughterer). He was one of Riina's associates, who admitted to being the one who detonated the explosives.[33]

I guess we can add the Mafia to the list of things you mythologize.

 

[smartcooky]

Citation needed.

The assassination of one prosecutor in Sicily:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Falcone

In the major crackdown against the Mafia following Falcone and Borsellino's deaths, Riina was arrested on 15 January 1993, and was serving a life sentence, until his death in 2017, for sanctioning the murders of both magistrates as well as many other crimes.[32] Another Mafioso convicted of the murder of Falcone is Giovanni Brusca, also known as lo scannacristiani (the people slaughterer). He was one of Riina's associates, who admitted to being the one who detonated the explosives.[33]

I guess we can add the Mafia to the list of things you mythologize.

Correct.

The Mafia stopped killing judges when they realised that doing so brought a ****-storm down on them. IIRC, it one of the reasons why some Mafia families cut their ties with the Sicilian Mafia is for that very reason. Furthermore, again IIRC, there were some Mafia members who declared an intent to kill a judge and were promptly offed by other Mafia members.

Vixen's claim that the Mafia routinely bump off judges is Hollywood movie fiction - to my best recollection the last two judges to be assassinated by the Mafia were the two you mentioned; Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, both killed by the Sicilian Mafia, and both within a couple of months of each other, and that was almost 30 years ago, back in 1992.

 

[Vixen]

Apart from friends shooting [former] friends with small-caliber weapons when they don't expect it followed by placement of the body in a pre-dug hole, I'm pretty sure there is no "true mafia style." It's just whomever is willing to kill is sent to kill.

All the trying to make it look like an accident or framing another person (beyond a nebulous "maybe some other organization did it") are products of fiction writers who want to make their work more entertaining.

In this case, we've got a guy who believed he was going to die who probably panicked when the door opened and shot the wrong person. At that point, between the guilt of killing an innocent (in his mind) person and the belief that death was imminent anyway, the murderer selected suicide instead of a miserable term in prison that wasn't going to last long anyway. I really can't fault his terminal reasoning; if only he'd been thinking so clearly and logically before he started shooting people.

Panicked? Seriously? A guy who had obviously put considerable thought into planning the crime to the extent of acquiring a Fedex costume, didn't anticipate the door being opened by any random person other than his target? He had terminal cancer yet was still mobile and active but decided to top himself and take out other people at the same time?

You stick with your conjecture and speculation and I'll stay with the facts as they are presented.

Wow and you present ypurself as 'the voice of reason'.

 

[Vixen]

A news outlet is now suggesting the murder was somehow linked to Judge Salas being Hispanic.

Two days before Yoho accosted Ocasio-Cortez, Roy Den Hollander allegedly showed up at federal Judge Esther Salas’ home in New Jersey disguised as a FedEx delivery person. He rang the doorbell and then shot her 20-year old son and her husband. Tragically, Judge Salas’ son did not survive the shooting.

Judge Salas, a first-generation lawyer, is the first Hispanic to serve as a federal district court judge in New Jersey. Den Hollander is a self-described anti-feminist lawyer and he disparaged Judge Salas in his autobiography, in which he wrote Judge Salas was a “lazy and incompetent Latina judge appointed by Obama.”

So here comes the new conspiracy theory:

Den Hollander openly hated Judge Salas because of both her race and gender yet he is not consistently described as a racist or Latina-hating men’s rights activist. His opposition to women is centered. Judge Salas’ son is now dead because an unhinged White man hated her and he hated her because of her multiple identities.

Despite Den Hollander’s open hatred for women and specifically women of color, he was celebrated and given a platform. His position was chalked up to “politics” and “differences in opinion. ” Violent verbal attacks against women of color are normalized and par for the course.

This presupposes Roy Den Hollander was a racist which IMV is begging the question, just as much as it begs the question, 'Judge Salas was shot [- by proxy of her son instead of her -] because she was a woman' or because 'She once crossed the guy's path five years ago and he had a grudge ever since', [despite her finding in favour his motion].

The fact she was female and latina, does not make it so IMV that these are the reasons she was targetted. The 'voice of reason' believes this to be the obvious reason and any other consideration is a crazy conspiracy theory, despite the fact Judge Salas had been handed the potentially highly conroversial Deutsche Bank corruption case just five days earlier implicating the influential movers and shakers that run the establishment.

Of course, the self-professed 'voice of reason' doesn't have enough reason to work out that a guy with terminal cancer who hates women and Hispanics and who wants to make a point have just gunned down any such individual from his car window, without having to dress up in costume and attend a specific address.

The 'voice of reason': hahaha!

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You stick with your conjecture and speculation and I'll stay with the facts as they are presented.

Wow and you present ypurself as 'the voice of reason'.

"The facts as they are presented". Mm-hmm.

You can't know that the Salas killer was 'just another nut' any more than you can know the truth about Sirhan Sirhan and Lee Oswald Harvey, the truth about one of the Twin Towers seeming to implode from the inside (I was watching this live on TV at work [my boss liked to have a TV on his desk as he was a gambling addict and needed to keep up with the horse racing], the truth about the death of Marilyn Monroe or Diana. Your saying they are all perfectly innocent doesn't make it so.

 

[Babbylonian]

Panicked? Seriously? A guy who had obviously put considerable thought into planning the crime to the extent of acquiring a Fedex costume, didn't anticipate the door being opened by any random person other than his target? He had terminal cancer yet was still mobile and active but decided to top himself and take out other people at the same time?

You stick with your conjecture and speculation and I'll stay with the facts as they are presented.

Wow and you present ypurself as 'the voice of reason'.

How many people had he shot and killed? Planning doesn't equal experience, even (especially?) for an addled MRA anti-feminist.

It might also be interesting to find out exactly what made his cancer terminal. The most common reason would be widespread metastasis. Such metastasis could include brain lesions which can obviously cause profound personality changes.

Note that I offer these thoughts as speculation instead of as a fantasy story that I claim as undeniable truth. I also don't add absurd elements without solid evidence for them.

ETA: Also, I never claimed to be the voice of reason. It really doesn't take much reason to see your stories as CT nonsense.

 

[JesseCuster]

You stick with your conjecture and speculation and I'll stay with the facts as they are presented.

The guy was involved in setting up security systems for Russia, he was involved in espionage in Russia, possibly worked as a double agent...

Those kind of 'facts'?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

This presupposes Roy Den Hollander was a racist which IMV is begging the question,

Have you checked this? His writings are online. Have you read any of them?

just as much as it begs the question, 'Judge Salas was shot [- by proxy of her son instead of her -] because she was a woman' or because 'She once crossed the guy's path five years ago and he had a grudge ever since', [despite her finding in favour his motion].

The fact she was female and latina, does not make it so IMV that these are the reasons she was targetted.

Again, have you read what he said about her? It seems pretty clear to me that these are exactly the reasons he targeted her.

The 'voice of reason' believes this to be the obvious reason and any other consideration is a crazy conspiracy theory, despite the fact Judge Salas had been handed the potentially highly conroversial Deutsche Bank corruption case just five days earlier implicating the influential movers and shakers that run the establishment.

If you are going to stick to 'the facts as presented', then you should name these 'influential movers and shakers', and perhaps outline, with supporting evidence, what you think happened.
Otherwise, this is just insinuation and speculation, not fact.

 

[Vixen]

Some interesting facts about attacks on Judges:

Judges targeted
According to the U.S. Marshals Service, there were 4,449 threats and inappropriate communications against federal judges, prosecutors and court officials in 2019. In 2015, that number was 926. Over that same period, the number of threats investigated rose from 305 to 373, peaking at 531 in 2018. The U.S. Marshals Service does not break down this data by gender.

Deadly attacks on federal judges are relatively rare and have primarily involved men, who, according to the Center for American Progress, make up the majority of the seats. Among the handful or so who have been killed was Arizona federal judge John Roll, one of six people who died in the 2011 shooting massacre targeting U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

In 2005, Illinois federal judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow lost her husband and mother in a targeted attack at her Chicago home.

Julie Kocurek, the first female criminal district judge in Travis County, survived an attempted assassination outside her home in Austin in 2015, according to the Austin American-Statesman.

According to the New York Times, investigators found a list in Den Hollander's rental car with the names of three other female judges on it, one of them -- like Salas -- is also a federal judge. Another was New York Chief Judge Janet DiFiore, her spokesman had previously confirmed to ABC News. The third was a state judge who had presided over one of Den Hollander's cases, the Times reported.

"Being a federal judge in general is a role that can make enemies. People can be pretty upset about your decisions," Emily Martin, vice president of education and workplace justice for the National Women's Law Center, told ABC News. "When you layer that with the fact that if you are a woman, if you are a person of color, there's a deeper vein of hostility and hatred that those reactions can tap into."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/threats-judges-increasing-experts-misogyny-problem/story?id=72061296

Personally I am sceptical that Den Hollander 'had such a hatred of women he decided to kill a female judge' in a complicated costume scenario. Yeah, it happens every day.

We'll never know the truth of the matter as the case is closed. If it was a mafia of some sort - and Russia has some of the worst organised criminal groups involved in money laundering - then it just committed the perfect crime and the message sent.

 

[Babbylonian]

Some interesting facts about attacks on Judges:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/threats-judges-increasing-experts-misogyny-problem/story?id=72061296

Personally I am sceptical that Den Hollander 'had such a hatred of women he decided to kill a female judge' in a complicated costume scenario. Yeah, it happens every day.

We'll never know the truth of the matter as the case is closed. If it was a mafia of some sort - and Russia has some of the worst organised criminal groups involved in money laundering - then it just committed the perfect crime and the message sent.

No! You don't get away with that **** here. If nobody apart from conspiracy cranks gets the message, then the message hasn't really been "sent."

If the Russians really wanted to send a message at this point, polonium would likely be the medium. They certainly wouldn't engage in this kind of absurdly complicated frame job that makes sense in its own demented way.

 

[Axxman300]

I'll say it again:

The smart move is to kill the plaintiffs. Even if the trial continues and the court rules against you the decision is overturned on appeal. Either way it gives the next people in line thinking about filing a suit something to think about.

Plus, the trial hadn't begun so there was an even chance the verdict would have been in the bank's favor because if you read charges they're kind of thin.

 

[theprestige]

Isn't killing the plaintiffs a giant neon arrow pointing straight at the defendants, screaming, "investigate me for murder!"?

That doesn't seem like the smart move at all. That seems like the kind of move to be embarrassed about saying the first time, let alone saying again.

 

[abaddon]

Have you checked this?

Yes.

His writings are online. Have you read any of them?

Yes.

According to those we are entitled to batter seven shades of snot out of Vixen and she is obliged to thank us for the favour.

I cannot explain why on earth she holds such a plainly nutty position.

 

[catsmate]

Panicked? Seriously?

Yes. Some of us are familiar with The Real World.

A guy who had obviously put considerable thought into planning the crime to the extent of acquiring a Fedex costume, didn't anticipate the door being opened by any random person other than his target? He had terminal cancer yet was still mobile and active but decided to top himself and take out other people at the same time?

So what?

You stick with your conjecture and speculation and I'll stay with the facts as they are presented.

That'd be the facts that utterly contradict the childish nonsense you're spewing?

 

[Axxman300]

Isn't killing the plaintiffs a giant neon arrow pointing straight at the defendants, screaming, "investigate me for murder!"?

That doesn't seem like the smart move at all. That seems like the kind of move to be embarrassed about saying the first time, let alone saying again.

First, that's why it's not a common occurrence in the US. Second, if the killers are professionals there's no way to directly trace it back. And while everyone knows who's behind it nothing can be done without proof.

Most of the time plaintiffs and witnesses are simply intimidated into silence. I refer to US street gang violence as well as organized crime, but it seems to work elsewhere if the accused is motivated. The main problem is that the violence level in the US in certain cities that murder doesn't stand out any more. The byproduct of this is that homicide detectives are sharper than they've ever been.

In this specific case there is no conspiracy. Just bad timing.

Had the judge hanged herself then we'd have a legit conspiracy as this seems to be a pattern for Deutsche Bank:

https://whowhatwhy.org/2019/11/28/a...ing-parallels-between-us-and-estonian-deaths/

But we don't, so there ain't one.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes. Some of us are familiar with The Real World.

So what?

That'd be the facts that utterly contradict the childish nonsense you're spewing?

You seem to have forgotten the CT's credo... "Never attribute to logic, reason or commonsense that which can be distorted and re-imagined into some bat-**** crazy conspiracy theory"

 

[Vixen]

The next judge to be appointed for the Deutsche Bank case is going to be **** scared regardless, as will those picked for the jury and the prosecution team. Well, we'll see. Let's see if security is stepped up. If so, then we know the FBI have their doubts this killing was a straightforward murder/suicide with nothing to do with the upcoming case.

 

[Babbylonian]

The next judge to be appointed for the Deutsche Bank case is going to be **** scared regardless, as will those picked for the jury and the prosecution team.

You overestimate the number of people who believe in every evidence-free crackpot conspiracy theory.